Can We End the Term "Japanese Summilux?"

[xayraa33]

Growing up in the Detroit area back in the 50's/60's/70's, I can tell you that GM was about ready to produce their own rotary engine in 1974 (or so) but backed out at the last minute because of mediocre fuel economy and some other manufacturing issues.

Jim B.

I think it was supposed to go in the Chevy Vega...but the Vega or Vega owners got stuck with a failed experiment that was probably worse than that gas guzzling Wankel engine...a conventional piston design engine but with one big flaw....aluminium cylinder block and no steel cylinder insert...just an experimental Reynolds aluminium block with a special silicon impregnated cylinder walls, yikes ! One big oil burning disaster at customers expense.

My sister in 1973 wanted to buy one of these wretched things and I went to the Chevy dealer with her and had one look at that engine and read how it was described in the Chevy Vega brochure and I said to my sister that in no way I am letting you buy this horrid car...and we walked away .

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The name Summilux is a combination of Summum, which is the Latin word for highest and Lux, for light.

No one ever called it the Japanese "höchstes Licht".

The Canon 50/1.4 is the best of the fast lenses of the 1950s. The Prominent Nokton is close, but a clean 50/1.4 is better. The Nikkor is a Sonnar, more field curvature. So Leica is the "German Summilux". It's not like Summilux is a German word, it's Latin.

Trying to read insults into everything is tiring. There are enough real problems, work on them. Picking out a 64 year old lens for this is ridiculous.

 

[Mackinaw]

I think it was supposed to go in the Chevy Vega...but the Vega or Vega owners got stuck with a failed experiment that was probably worse than that gas guzzling Wankel engine...a conventional piston design engine but with one big flaw....aluminium cylinder block and no steel cylinder insert...just an experimental Reynolds aluminium block with a special silicon impregnated cylinder walls, yikes ! One big oil burning disaster at customers expense.....

Yes it was the Vega. And the engine problems are much more than most know. This is way off-topic. Take a look at the link (from Hemmings) for the real story on the Vega engine:

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...-what-gave-the-vega-engine-its-bad-reputation

Jim B.

 

[xayraa33]

AMC was about to do the same for the Pacer and swapped it out at the last minute for an underpowered ordinary motor shoehorned into the engine compartment.

The AMC 232 straight six as the standard AMC Pacer engine was a very good engine, my sister bought a new Hornet in 1974 with that engine after I convinced her that the cute Vega was nothing but trouble in the making.

That AMC Hornet lasted for 14 yrs and that engine had many miles on it in those 14 yrs and never gave her any problems... I had its brother the 258 ci six in a Jeep and it was essentially the 232 but with a longer stroke for more torque...an other great engine that ran with no trouble for a 139,000 miles, so good that design became the basis for the legendary Jeep 4 litre straight six engine .

With a good battery that 258 ci AMC straight six never failed to start even at near 40 below zero in Northern Ontario in hard winter.

 

[f.hayek]

The AMC 232 straight six as the standard AMC Pacer engine was a very good engine, my sister bought a new Hornet in 1974 with that engine after I convinced her that the cute Vega was nothing but trouble in the making.

That AMC Hornet lasted for 14 yrs and that engine had many miles on it in those 14 yrs and never gave her any problems... I had its brother the 258 ci six in a Jeep and it was essentially the 232 but with a longer stroke for more torque...an other great engine than ran with no trouble for a 139,000 miles, so good that design became the basis for the legendary Jeep 4 litre straight six engine .

With a good battery that 258 ci AMC straight six never failed to start even at near 40 below zero in Northern Ontario in hard winter.

But as I recall, it was front-heavy and affected the handling. The rotary engine would have been smaller and the weight more balanced.

 

[xayraa33]

Yes it was the Vega. And the engine problems are much more than most know. This is way off-topic. Take a look at the link (from Hemmings) for the real story on the Vega engine:

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...-what-gave-the-vega-engine-its-bad-reputation

Jim B.

Wow, what a great article and so informative !
It was like a comedy of errors.

I am glad that I steered my sister away from acquiring that headache.

Thanks for the heads up on it.

 

[xayraa33]

But as I recall, it was front-heavy and affected the handling. The rotary engine would have been smaller and the weight more balanced.

The Pacer was a very wide but compact heavy small car so I don't think the 232 6 cylinder engine would make much difference in handling. I never drove one but I did get a ride in a Pacer and it seemed to pose no trouble in handling to the driver..the being in a fishbowl experience was kind of neat when riding or driving in a Pacer...very hot inside on sunny summer's day with all that glass area.. air-con or not.

An ugly car but an interesting car.

 

[splitimageview]

Bill Rosauer, former president of the Leica Historical Society, claims in this LHSA article that Jason Howe was the first to have dubbed the Canon 50/1.4 the "Japanese Summilux" and that it "is an apt description" for a "superior all around performer."

No question this is a positive moniker, not a derogatory one.

 

[Retro-Grouch]

I think xayraa33 just needs a big, inclusive, PC hug. No need to be Mr. Grumpypants!

 

[xayraa33]

I think xayraa33 just needs a big, inclusive, PC hug. No need to be Mr. Grumpypants!

Nah...I get plenty of hugs from my grandchildren.

The only PC thing I like is President's Choice coffee.

I am never grumpy, you are just not use to my tongue in cheek type of humour.

 

[dexdog]

I have been staying out of this thread until this point. I think that the term of Japanese Summilux may be a 1950s attempt to make an unfamiliar product relatable between different cultures and nationalities, in this case European and Japanese. In this same vein Suzhou, China is sometimes referred to as the "Venice of the East", even though this term has been applied to several locales in Asia. I think that this kinda characterization is not made out of animus, but as an attempt to give the reader something to grasp onto when introducing something unfamiliar. I have visited both Suzhou and Venice, and while these two places are very different, I think that the presence of canals and boat traffic makes sense of the comparison. Is Amsterdam the Venice the North? As an aside, I love the Canon 50/1.4 for B&W photography, although I think it renders colors too cool/blue spectrum on color film.

 

[mpaniagua]

One thing for sure, this thread let me know that there a lot of thinking, well mannered person on the forum. There may be a few exceptions but on the whole, I'm glad there are more constructive people that easily offended, destructive people.

Keep it on guys. Wish you great framing and best exposure on you photos.


Marcelo.

 

[Rayt]

I have been staying out of this thread until this point. I think that the term of Japanese Summilux may be a 1950s attempt to make an unfamiliar product relatable between different cultures and nationalities, in this case European and Japanese. In this same vein Suzhou, China is sometimes referred to as the "Venice of the East", even though this term has been applied to several locales in Asia. I think that this kinda characterization is not made out of animus, but as an attempt to give the reader to something to grasp onto when introducing something unfamiliar. I have visited both Suzhou and Venice, and while these two places are very different, I think that the presence of canals and boat traffic makes sense of the comparison. Is Amsterdam the Venice the North? As an aside, I love the Canon 50/1.4 for B&W photography, although I think it renders colors too cool/blue spectrum on color film.

The “water towns” near Hangzhou and Shanghai have charms of their own but as you have noted are nothing like Venice though I must say if you order a pizza in Suzhou it will not be frozen from the supermarket like in Venice! Chinese restaurants will tell you a dumpling is like a Chinese Ravioli and Lo Mein Chinese spaghetti.

 

[dexdog]

OK

The “water towns” near Hangzhou and Shanghai have charms of their own but as you have noted are nothing like Venice though I must say if you order a pizza in Suzhou it will not be frozen from the supermarket like in Venice! Chinese restaurants will tell you a dumpling is like a Chinese Ravioli and Lo Mein Chinese spaghetti.

I would add Bangkok to the list of water towns, even though it sprawls much farther from the river than other places. I have never had anything but great food in Bangkok or other parts of Thailand where one can often watch the food being prepared fresh.

OK, I am really gonna ignore this thread from now on, I promise.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I do not refer to the Nikkor-SC 5cm F1.5, Nikkor-SC 5cm F1.4, nor Canon 50mm F1.5 lenses as "Sonnar Copies" as does the OP. They are Sonnar formula lenses, use different glass, have different surface curvatures, and have different element spacing from the Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnars. They are made to the Leica Standard of 51.6mm, not to the Zeiss (nominal) 52.4mm standard. Calling them a "COPY" demonstrates a lack of understanding of the work that went into creating them. Reading books by Peter Kitchingham and Robert Rotoloni might give some appreciation into what went into formulating these lenses. Taking them apart and working on them- even more so. I would not refer to the Canon 50mm F1.4 as an "Opic" copy, any more than I would call a Leica Summicron an "Opic" copy. I find the use of the phrase "COPY" much more belittling than the term the OP is complaining about.

https://davidde.com/2020/12/05/comp...-50-1-4-ii-1959-and-the-nikkor-s-50-1-4-2000/

I see the original article is newly edited, within the time of this post. It's been fixed to clarify that these lenses are not copies. Much better.

The original-

https://web.archive.org/web/2020120...-50-1-4-ii-1959-and-the-nikkor-s-50-1-4-2000/

So it was Okay to label a Japanese lens as a COPY of a Zeiss optic, but comparing it with a Leica optic is somehow insulting. "Sonnar" is derived from the German "Sonne", meaning Sun.

The Canon 50mm f/1.4 LTM rangefinder lens is not a copy in any way of the V1 Leica Summilux and is a unique design. I'm not sure where this term came from, but it seems to do an injustice to the Canon engineers who designed it. Maybe they are all dead or did not care, but I've never liked the implication that anything good out of Japan in the 1950s or 60s "had" to be a copy of something European. My two cents.

Both the Summilux V1 and Canon 50mm F1.4 are based on the Opic of 1920. The Summilux 1-2-2-1-1 design splits the rear element of the Opic into two elements of lesser power. The Canon 1-2-2-1 used a newer high-index of refraction/ low dispersion glass to achieve the high power required for the faster aperture. Both lenses are closely related as they are based on the Opic. They "COPY" that design similar to the Nikon and Canon "COPIES" of the Zeiss Sonnar as the OP referred to them in his blog in late 2020.

This is just pathetic.

 

[xayraa33]

Truthfully I should have wrote that : Detroit/ Paris of the Midwest.. as other American and Canadian cities claim Paris as a comparison, like: Denver/Paris of the West.. or Montreal/ Paris of North America (maybe they have more right to it because of the obvious French founding and French language in use there).

There is also St. Louis/ Gateway to the west..which might peeve off Memphis or even Chicago or Des Moines who want that title.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/...tty-post-industrial-documentary-about-detroit

https://vimeo.com/134907990

 

[splitimageview]

Yes, it’s pathetic, kinda like today’s Detroit.

 

[Retro-Grouch]

Wow, what a bunch of cranky old men with too much time on their hands! And I'm one of them... What do you say we just go out and do some shooting?
Hey, you kids get offa my lawn!!!!!

 

[bjorke]

Yes, let's retire the term, now that there are Chinese Summiluxes

 

[xayraa33]

Wow, what a bunch of cranky old men with too much time on their hands! And I'm one of them... What do you say we just go out and do some shooting?
Hey, you kids get offa my lawn!!!!!

I suggested we go out and do some shooting 2 days ago.



Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post

"Life is too short to build up strawman arguments just to pick senseless fights and cause needless arguments...enjoy life , be good to others and go out and make great photos that please you."