Canon LTM Can We End the Term "Japanese Summilux?"

[Deleted member 65559]

I favor Japanese cars over Germany cars for their durability. Our family car is a Honda.

My comment was about snow in Germany and rust in cars (in Germany).

Yes, I got that part Raid, & my comment was a factual, rather than hearsay statement that current Japanese cars and trucks don't rust any faster in winter in Canada than German or N American vehicles..

 

[xayraa33]

xrayaa33
"Some 1970s reminiscing:
But despite the nostalgia Datsun electrics were not great on their cars.
Mitsubishi cars were known for their bad piston rings.
Earliest Subaru cars like their 360 were tiny 2 stroke death traps.
Mazda had super bad gas mileage with their Wankel engines.
Early Honda Civics had valve problems at low mileage.
Toyota had some weak differentials and less than stated HP and torque and rode like trucks."
They all improved their cars.
All rusted fast and bad on salted winter roads"



Raid, xrayaa33 was talking about the vehicles of the '70s. Datsun became Nissan in N America in 1984. Vehicle construction has changed a lot since then. I don't imagine you have a need for salt on roads in Florida, but come up to Alberta in the winter and you'll see that current Toyotas, Subarus et al survive the winter salting of the roads as well as any N American or German vehicle. The rusted cars that you see are the ones that never get cleaned and washed by their owners, and that's true no matter which part of the world the brand originates. You'll see well-maintained vehicles 5-10 yrs old without a sign of rust.

Yes, I know they changed a lot since the 70s, I mentioned that they all improved their cars and they have done that ever since.. that is why Toyota and Honda are the cars to have in Canada..Corollas and Civics are big sellers with Canadians who traditionally do not like to spend big money on cars.

Best vehicles against rust are newish Toyota, Honda and GM vehicles the rest need to catch up, they are not as bad as in the 1970s but not as good as those 3...even Volvo are not as good as those 3 and in the 1960s ...a Volvo and even a VW bug was not bad for rust compared to the horrors from the UK, Italy and France.

Last thing most people have on their mind is to wash their car in winter on a dark winter's evening at 5:00 PM on the way home from work when it isa freezing 20 deg below zero C

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Last thing most people have on their mind is to wash their car in winter on a dark winter's evening at 5:00 PM on the way home from work when it isa freezing 20 deg below zero C

Xayraa, I don't know which part of the continent you live in but here on the east slope of the rockies there are frequent Chinooks which bring above freezing temps and a perfect chance for a little low-cost maintenance. I don't wash my car when it's -20 either.... & i agree with you about the current crop of vehicles. Raid says his friend says Japanese cars rust in Germany..... Ko.Fe. says Leica M's are 'flimsy'...... it appears as if civilization as we knew it is doomed....

 

[xayraa33]

Xayraa, I don't know which part of the continent you live in but here on the east slope of the rockies there are frequent Chinooks which bring above freezing temps and a perfect chance for a little low-cost maintenance. I don't wash my car when it's -20 either.... & i agree with you about the current crop of vehicles.

I live in Ontario and is originally from Northern Ontario near Hudson's Bay and we still have family there go there often to visit family.

I have friends from Alberta and they talk about the wondrous Chinooks but we don't have such wonderful winter easing things in Ontario , North or South , I would be just satisfied if they just used sand to de-ice roads instead of salt in Southern Ontario like in many places out west.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

I live in Ontario and is originally from Northern Ontario near Hudson's Bay and we still have family there go there often to visit family.

I have friends from Alberta and they talk about the wondrous Chinooks but we don't have such wonderful winter easing things in Ontario , North or South , I would be just satisfied if they just used sand to de-ice roads instead of salt in Southern Ontario like in many places out west.

There are many of us out here in the West that agree with you. Sand does add traction & once the salt melts the ice and gets diluted enough it simply refreezes as a slick as any Zamboni scoured ice rink.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Looking at the Canon 50/1.4: it is a classic 1-2-2-1 Taylor Hobson Opic of 1920. The Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 50mm F1.4 of 1927 pushed the Opic to F1.4. Almost every F2 "double-Gauss" of the 20th and 21st century is based on the "Slight Asymmetry" introduced to the original 19th century symmetric Double-Gauss design. Just about every manufacturer of lenses has produced a 1-2-2-1 "Opic", all variations on a theme.

Canon developed a new high index of refraction/ low dispersion glass that improved the design of the F1.4 lens that made it possible to do with a 6 element in 4 group design. Most manufacturers did a 7 element lens in 4, 5, or 6 groups.

Optically- the 1-2-2-1 50/1.8 v2 lens is probably a bit better. Unfortunately the glass that gave the lens such good performance reacted badly with some of the lubricants used. The special glass becomes etched from the oil. Somewhat akin to the sensor cover glass of the Leica M9 sensor becoming corroded.

It took me a couple of tries to get optically perfect Canon 50/1.8 v2, 50/1.4, and 50/1.2 lenses. Well worth it. I also have the 50/3.5, 50/2.8, 50/2.2, 50/2, 50/1.9, 50/1.8 v1, 50/1.5, and 50/0.95. The 50/2, 50/1.9, and 50/1.8 v1 are also classic 1-2-2-1 designs. Eleven 50mm lenses, 10 in Leica mount- all from the same manufacturer. The 50/0.95- Canon Breech-Lock mount for the Canon 7. The 50/3.5 and 50/2.8 are Tessar designs. The 50/1.5 is a Sonnar design. The 50/2.2 is a simplified 5/4 Double Gauss, much like a Xenotar. The 1940s Canon 50/2 (marked 5cm F2) has a much larger front element than the Leica Summar, closer in diameter to a Summitar. The Summitar is a 7/5 lens, the Summar is a 6/4 lens. The Canon 5cm F2 has Much less vignetting than the Summar.

Original Japanese 50mm designs as far as I know: the 5cm F1.5 Simlar- 1-3-2-1 Double Gauss 7 element in 4 groups, the Simlar stated to be formulated in 1937. The Canon 85/1.5 is also a 1-3-2-1. The Minolta Chiyoko lenses have some very unique designs. The little 3.5cm F3.5 is a classic Tessar, but has double-coated surfaces, 1957. The Minolta 5cm F1.8 is a 6 element in 5 group design- from the 1950s. Which makes the Leica 6/5 Summicron the "German Super-Rokkor".

Few lenses are "copies", they may follow the same block diagram but the optical prescription - the index of refraction for each element, surface curvature, and spacing of the individual lenses require new computations. Each design requires trade-offs, each is a bit different. The early KMZ Jupiter lenses used the same glass as the CZJ Sonnars until it ran out, used the same optical prescription- but the focal length for Russian screw mount lenses was 52.4mm where the focal length for the original German LTM Sonnars was closer to 51.6mm. Same with the Nikkor-P 10.5cm F2.5 in RF mount vs the SLR mount- slight change in element spacing.

 

[splitimageview]

Thanks for the optics history, @Sonnar Brian. "Japanese Elmar", "Japanese Summitar", or other combinations could also have become common nicknames.

Do you know if there a Japan variant of the Xenon/Summarit?

I had a Fuji Cristar 50/2 collapsible in LTM a while back, it was essentially identical in rendering to the Summitar, based on this I am guessing it used a close optical formula.

 

[jsrockit]

Didn’t these terms come along around the same time as “bokeh” hit? I’ve always heard of the Japanese Summicron... the Canon 35mm F2 in ltm. I also assumed it was because the Leica lenses kept getting more expensive and the Canon counterparts were cheaper, but still good.

 

[Godfrey]

davidde1000,

Since I've never heard the term "Japanese Summilux" outside of the context of this (your) thread, nor have I ever used such terms at all (or thought of anything in these kinds of prejudicial manners), and it seems to me a term of more recent origin than the time period of the respective lenses' manufacture or origin (and thus not something created by the biases and prejudices of that time), I couldn't care less what ridiculous PC awareness you're trying to achieve.

BTW, I have a Ryobi hand-held portable air pump and find it an excellent piece of equipment. Craftsman tools became garbage about 35-40 years ago, when I stopped buying them and went for Hazet, Snap-On, and MAC instead.

Also BTW, I worked for Apple for a quarter of a century ... in smartphones, there are iPhones and there is junk, in my opinion ... And I don't care who else makes them. They're junk because they run Android OS, and in the one and only Android device I own (the Light L16 camera), the part I find the most irritating to deal with on every level is the US invented and implemented Android OS.

G

Addendum: Oh yes, I almost forgot ... The rims I use on my custom-build bicycle are made for me to my specification by BTLOS in China. They are superb, the best carbon rims I've found for the application anywhere in the world, and the people who have designed and made them for me are warm, kind, delightful folks to get to know and do business with. When the first set of them were stolen (when the bike they were fitted to was stolen) at the beginning of the pandemic lockdown, they went out of their way to provide replacements at a discounted price quickly so that I had a new bicycle of the same spec to ride all during the pandemic year. Great people, excellent products ... come from everywhere in the world.

I totally agree with the posters above who point out that the term "Japanese" anything to a Westerner after the war denoted something "cheap" or "derivative" and that stereotype still is present in our society. Sure, there were some people in the 1950s and 1960s who highly valued Japanese products, but that was not the prevailing sentiment -- it was in fact quite the opposite for the average person, especially for a good number (not all) WW2 vets who went to their grave with a burning hatred of Asian people. Then you have auto workers in the 1980s smashing Japanese cars out of resentment while re-raising all of the anti-Asian tropes prevalent through the history of the USA. And then it comes back again during COVID.

I think we can describe the 50mm 1.4 in a way that is fair and recognizes the achievements of Canon engineers without making it a "Japanese" version of a Western product. Canon beat Leica to the 1.4 aperture by a few years, used a unique design that is not at all similar to the eventual Summilux, and produced a very high-quality product that a normal person could more easily afford and use on the zillions of LTM cameras in circulation at the time, while the Summilux cost thousands of dollars in today's money as well as the thousands that would have been spent on an M body at the time. The 1.4 does have an annoyingly long focus throw and only 1.00m minimum focusing. Let's talk about its merits instead, and if it "needs" a "nickname," find one that is respectful and does not draw inaccurate and/or insensitive comparisons.

For those who see no problem to the nomenclature, let's flip it around. What if the entire world referred to all US-made Craftsman tools as the "American Ryobi?" Or all iPhones as the "American Samsung?" I'm sure that would appear unfair and draw serious objections. It should be a two-way street.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I remember "Photographic Lenses", Neblette, 1965 edition listing the 7 element in 5 group design of the Taylor, Taylor, and Hobson Xenon. The Summarit is a slightly different design, one of the elements has a different curvature. I think there is a French version and a Japanese version- but need to find the book.

The F1.5 Xenon is based on the classic 1-2-2-1 where the rear element is split into two elements of lesser strength, a "1-2-2-1-1" design. The Nikkor 5.8cm F1.4 split the front element, a 1-1-2-2-1 design. Also- gives much the same look.

The Minolta Chiyoko 5cm F2 Super-Rokkor is close to the Summitar, but also a variation on the design. Gives the same look.

After reading all this, reminds me of a song by the Ramones.

Sheena is a Super-Rokkor,
Sheena is a Super-Rokkor,
Sheena is a Super-Rokkor,
Sheena is a Super-Rokkor now.

 

[jarski]

Thankfully it wasn't a discussion about PC or wokeness or being offensive.

there was one plausible reason though: improve online sales (in eBay etc.) with catch words people will recognize, enter Japanese Summicron/lux etc.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Japanese Canon 50mm F1.4 lens in Leica Thread Mount is based on the British Opic lens.

Just does not sound as cool as "The Japanese Summilux".

I've been in discussions at camera shows where the sales person made statements such as "This Canon 50/1.8 is as good as the Leica Summicron" or "The lens on the Konica S2 is as good as a Summicron". I agree, and have test charts to prove it. The statements were compliments. They are acknowledgements that these lenses are as good as their Leica counterparts. There are some that have a "Nothing but a Leica is any good". Terms such as the "Japanese Summilux" are the counter to this mentality. Anyone that bothers to read a book on optics or looks up the lens on the Internet know that they are not copies.

Get rid of the phrase "Japanese Summilux". Once you understand the meaning behind it, no- not necessary. I prefer putting up test charts showing my $30 Konica 50/1.7 that I converted to M-Mount performing as well as the V2 Rigid Summicron that cost ~$1000. Don't use it if you don't want to. But nothing wrong with freedom of speech.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Mazda had super bad gas mileage with their Wankel engines.

I beg to differ. The gas mileage was about normal for that period, the issue was the oil mileage. The running joke we had when pulling into a gas station was "Fill it up with oil, and check the gas please." Those early Wankel engines burned oil like a two stroke, but man were they fast.

Best,
-Tim

PS: I had never heard the term "Japanese Summilux" until this thread. I am familiar with the term "Japanese Summicron" when referring to the Canon 35mm f2.0 LTM, a lens I like better than the "German Summicron."

 

[xayraa33]

I beg to differ. The gas mileage was about normal for that period, the issue was the oil mileage. The running joke we had when pulling into a gas station was "Fill it up with oil, and check the gas please." Those early Wankel engines burned oil like a two stroke, but man were they fast.

Best,
-Tim

PS: I had never heard the term "Japanese Summilux" until this thread. I am familiar with the term "Japanese Summicron" when referring to the Canon 35mm f2.0 LTM, a lens I like better than the "German Summicron."

My late neighbour was an RX Mazda fan and he had the sports car and also the early 70s sedan with the Wankel engine and the oil consumption problem reared it ugly head only after 40,000 miles but the V8 like American style gasoline consumption in a light and small car was noticed right away.. which defeated the premise of getting a small car for its high mpg especially in the gas crisis of 1973 and 1979.

 

[mpaniagua]

3 Pages of discussion just for an innocuous nick name that was mean as a compliment? Seriously?

 

[Mackinaw]

My late neighbour was an RX Mazda fan and he had the sports car and also the early 70s sedan and the oil consumption problem reared it ugly head only after 40,000 miles but the V8 like American style gasoline consumption in a light and small car was noticed right away.. which defeated the premise of getting a small car for its high mpg especially in the gas crisis of 1973 and 1979.

Growing up in the Detroit area back in the 50's/60's/70's, I can tell you that GM was about ready to produce their own rotary engine in 1974 (or so) but backed out at the last minute because of mediocre fuel economy and some other manufacturing issues.

Jim B.

 

[raid]

I think that some people are/were bored, and they felt it is a relief to them to post about it all.

 

[f.hayek]

Growing up in the Detroit area back in the 50's/60's/70's, I can tell you that GM was about ready to produce their own rotary engine in 1974 (or so) but backed out at the last minute because of mediocre fuel economy and some other manufacturing issues.

Jim B.

AMC was about to do the same for the Pacer and swapped it out at the last minute for an underpowered ordinary motor shoehorned into the engine compartment.

 

[mpaniagua]

...So, given context and history, to say that a first-to-market, innovative, fast lens is a "Japanese Summilux" does not sound "complimentary" -- it sounds condescending.

Can't really agree with you david. The term "Japanese Summilux", like most thinks on life, depend on context. If someone that like Summlux lens tries the Canon 1.4 lens and love it, and express "man this is the Japanse Summilux!" then that is intended as a compliment, since you are comparing to something you have great appreciation.

On the other hand, if you consider Ford cars to be bad (this is an example, pleaso Ford fans dont be offended), and you test a Hyundai car (again an hypotecal example) and don't like it, you may say that Hyundai is the "Korean Ford", that is inteded as condescending.

Everything is on context. Please check the context before saying something is bad or wrong, complimentary or condescending.

Marcelo

 

[splitimageview]

So, given context and history, to say that a first-to-market, innovative, fast lens is a "Japanese Summilux" does not sound "complimentary" -- it sounds condescending.

Is there a rule written down somewhere that states 'it is offensive to nickname a product that is first to market?'

This brings to mind this recent story of the gift of a kimono.

We have truly reached the level of absurdity not only on this topic, but in every area of life...