Carl Zeiss Jena Prototypes, Experimental, and Transition Lenses,

stuart_115 said:
Funny enough, while Soviet copies are considered quite inferior, the Japanese copies are considered up to the same standard.
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This is not 100% true. I have gotten some KMZ Jupiters that are good lenses. My '57 Jupiter-8 is a beautiful lens in resolving power and color reproduction. Granted QC was irregular, but there are some gems out there, to wit:

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After owning one this Thiele book about the post-war photo production in east Germany for over a year I finally put a look inside. It starts with some internal Zeiss Jena annually reports for the years 44/45 and 45/46 that have tons of interesting information about this time. Although a lot might be already known I was surprised by some of it.
  1. From 1945-04-12 to 1945-06-31 the city of Jena was under military control of US forces. In this time the whole storage of civil photographic devices where sold or requisitioned by the US military. They took even took the whole lens collection of all of the 2.000 prototype and historical photographic lenses from the Zeiss museum. They took almost all original papers and designs of all photographic lenses. They forced CZJ to deliver lenses with LTM mount and CZJ delivered some samples. CZJ started the work to fill up the emptied storage shelfes.
  2. Immediately after the US military left Jena the Soviet military occupied Jena. (When they learned that the US "stole" the treasured CZJ property they were absolutely raging and it caused some heavy international tensions between the allied parties) The Soviets where mostly interested in Kleinbild (full frame), reproduction and projector devices. They ordered a huge deal of (immediately or shortly) available devices that should be delivered until February 1946. CZJ used some stalled delivery orders to start the new production for the Soviet administration. (This could mean that some of the serial batches where never finished or where startet before war and finished after the WWII)
  3. There is a captain Stepanoff that ordered 3,6M RM of optics for projectors and the FED camera and was scheduled until June 1946. The Soviets told CZJ that their FED camera was in line with the Leica I. Later CZJ got their hands on FED cameras and found out that there was a significant difference between the flange distance of the Leica and the FED. But when they did it was too late and they already manufactured all the lenses with the Leica measurements. In the report CZJ states that they purposely did not offer LTM versions of their lenses but they where forced to do so by the Soviet administration. The list of LTM lenses from the report
    1. Sonnar 1,5/5cm
    2. Sonnar 2/5cm
    3. Sonnar 2/8,5cm
    4. Sonnar 4/13,5cm
    5. Sonnar 2,8/18cm
    6. Sonnar 4/30cm
    7. Tessar 8/2,8cm
    8. Tele-Tessar 6,3/18cm
    9. Biogon 2,8/3,5
  4. CZJ was calculating to deliver all of the Soviet orders between February 1946 and January 1947.
  5. The Soviet orders where handled as highest priorities. Not only the orders directly for CZJ but for camera manufacturers with Soviet orders too. The orders kept CZJ in a way busy that they could sparely handle the requests from other firms in the Soviet zone and could not handle any orders from the US zone.
  6. A list from CZJ of immediate steps to take revealed that they needed to reconstruct all the lost design papers. A second task was to build up a manufacturing for Contax Sonnar lens frames ( Fassungen ). Those where build up to this point by Zeiss Ikon itself. Now that the Zeiss Ikon production was destroyed Jena had to redesign the frames and start the production of Contax and LTM lenses. The Soviet administration forced CZJ to offer the Contax lenses for their Russian FED camera. The lenses mentioned where
    1. Tessar 8/2,8cm
    2. Biogon 3,5/3,5cm
    3. Sonnar 2/8,5cm
    4. Sonnar 4/13,5cm
    5. Sonnar 2,8/18cm
    6. Sonnar 4/30cm
    7. Tessar 2,8/5cm
    8. Tessar 3,5/5cm
    9. Tele-Tessar 6,3/18cm
    10. Fernobjektiv 8/50cm
  7. When the Soviets learned that the US had requisitioned the Zeiss lens collection the Soviets insisted on getting an own collection too. Engineer Major Prof. Jachantoff from Optical Institute in Leningrad gave the order that from every manufactured device some examples should be provided to the Soviets to build up a second photo lens museum in Russia. The order was forced with the highest priority so that all departments were had to work on samples only and all other orders (even for the Soviet military) had to be stalled until this was finished. This caused some heavy delay in 1946 production.
  8. On 1946-10-22 CZJ got the Soviet order to dismantle the manufacturing in Jena. The whole production facility was moved to the FSU. CZJ got surprised by this order. They did not see this coming.
That are only bits from those reports and even if this sounds like a WWII heist movie that are only some highlights what had happened at that time.

What I found most interesting is the part about the Contax lens frames. I was suspecting this already and had written to some people researching the Dresden photo industry but got no answer about this. It seems that pre- and wartime Sonnar lenses were finished by Zeiss Ikon in Dresden. CZJ manufactured the lens in a screw mount and Zeiss Ikon manufactured the casing / frame / barrel in Contax mount. When Zeiss Ikon was destroyed at the end of WWII Jena had to start manufacturing the whole Contax lens and had to redesign the barrel. That explains why the design language changed so dramatically after WWII. Well ... the Sonnar 5cm is missing from the above list but I don't think that the Sonnar 5cm is an exception to this.

Another interesting part is the LTM mount version of lenses. So the US and primary Soviet administration forced CZJ to build LTM versions after WWII.

There is another list that shows a Sonnar 5cm f2 for Pau 2 (a photographic machine gun???). So there was military use for the Sonnar after the war too.

The report shows the chaos surrounding Zeiss and the German photographic industry in this time. Starvation, Tuberculosis and escape is mentioned not only for CZJ but other known companies too. It mentions quality issues and missing material and parts. You see departing interests and a lot of force. Even after giving the order to dismantle the Jena fabrication the Soviets did not stop to force CZJ to push the rebuild of the photographic production. Until June 1948 the Soviets controlled the whole planing of all photographic companies in East Germany.

The subsidiary companies tried to escape the control of Jena. Zeiss Opton became the head later. But even Zeiss Ikon in Dresden wanted to build their own optics. The report mentions that Zeiss Ikon utilized the Dresden Zeiss site (that was not destroyed) and that they were better prepared for that task than Meyer Görlitz of that time. CZJ tried to keep the control over all the German industry even in this years.The history of the Zeiss Ikon site in Dresden Reick lies mostly in the shadow for now. But you can find a CIA report from 1952 here. 😄
 
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Räuber said:
After owning one this Thiele book about the post-war photo production in east Germany for over a year I finally put a look inside. It starts with some internal Zeiss Jena annually reports for the years 44/45 and 45/46 that have tons of interesting information about this time. Although a lot might be already known I was surprised by some of it.
  1. From 1945-04-12 to 1945-06-31 the city of Jena was under military control of US forces. In this time the whole storage of civil photographic devices where sold or requisitioned by the US military. They took even took the whole lens collection of all of the 2.000 prototype and historical photographic lenses from the Zeiss museum. They took almost all original papers and designs of all photographic lenses. They forced CZJ to deliver lenses with LTM mount and CZJ delivered some samples. CZJ started the work to fill up the emptied storage shelfes.
  2. Immediately after the US military left Jena the Soviet military occupied Jena. (When they learned that the US "stole" the treasured CZJ property they were absolutely raging and it caused some heavy international tensions between the allied parties) The Soviets where mostly interested in Kleinbild (full frame), reproduction and projector devices. They ordered a huge deal of (immediately or shortly) available devices that should be delivered until February 1946. CZJ used some stalled delivery orders to start the new production for the Soviet administration. (This could mean that some of the serial batches where never finished or where startet before war and finished after the WWII)
  3. There is a captain Stepanoff that ordered 3,6M RM of optics for projectors and the FED camera and was scheduled until June 1946. The Soviets told CZJ that their FED camera was in line with the Leica I. Later CZJ got their hands on FED cameras and found out that there was a significant difference between the flange distance of the Leica and the FED. But when they did it was too late and they already manufactured all the lenses with the Leica measurements. In the report CZJ states that they purposely did not offer LTM versions of their lenses but they where forced to do so by the Soviet administration. The list of LTM lenses from the report
    1. Sonnar 1,5/5cm
    2. Sonnar 2/5cm
    3. Sonnar 2/8,5cm
    4. Sonnar 4/13,5cm
    5. Sonnar 2,8/18cm
    6. Sonnar 4/30cm
    7. Tessar 8/2,8cm
    8. Tele-Tessar 6,3/18cm
    9. Biogon 2,8/3,5
  4. CZJ was calculating to deliver all of the Soviet orders between February 1946 and January 1947.
  5. The Soviet orders where handled as highest priorities. Not only the orders directly for CZJ but for camera manufacturers with Soviet orders too. The orders kept CZJ in a way busy that they could sparely handle the requests from other firms in the Soviet zone and could not handle any orders from the US zone.
  6. A list from CZJ of immediate steps to take revealed that they needed to reconstruct all the lost design papers. A second task was to build up a manufacturing for Contax Sonnar lens frames ( Fassungen ). Those where build up to this point by Zeiss Ikon itself. Now that the Zeiss Ikon production was destroyed Jena had to redesign the frames and start the production of Contax and LTM lenses. The Soviet administration forced CZJ to offer the Contax lenses for their Russian FED camera. The lenses mentioned where
    1. Tessar 8/2,8cm
    2. Biogon 3,5/3,5cm
    3. Sonnar 2/8,5cm
    4. Sonnar 4/13,5cm
    5. Sonnar 2,8/18cm
    6. Sonnar 4/30cm
    7. Tessar 2,8/5cm
    8. Tessar 3,5/5cm
    9. Tele-Tessar 6,3/18cm
    10. Fernobjektiv 8/50cm
  7. When the Soviets learned that the US had requisitioned the Zeiss lens collection the Soviets insisted on getting an own collection too. Engineer Major Prof. Jachantoff from Optical Institute in Leningrad gave the order that from every manufactured device some examples should be provided to the Soviets to build up a second photo lens museum in Russia. The order was forced with the highest priority so that all departments were had to work on samples only and all other orders (even for the Soviet military) had to be stalled until this was finished. This caused some heavy delay in 1946 production.
  8. On 1946-10-22 CZJ got the Soviet order to dismantle the manufacturing in Jena. The whole production facility was moved to the FSU. CZJ got surprised by this order. They did not see this coming.
That are only bits from those reports and even if this sounds like a WWII heist movie that are only some highlights what had happened at that time.

What I found most interesting is the part about the Contax lens frames. I was suspecting this already and had written to some people researching the Dresden photo industry but got no answer about this. It seems that pre- and wartime Sonnar lenses were finished by Zeiss Ikon in Dresden. CZJ manufactured the lens in a screw mount and Zeiss Ikon manufactured the casing / frame / barrel in Contax mount. When Zeiss Ikon was destroyed at the end of WWII Jena had to start manufacturing the whole Contax lens and had to redesign the barrel. That explains why the design language changed so dramatically after WWII. Well ... the Sonnar 5cm is missing from the above list but I don't think that the Sonnar 5cm is an exception to this.

Another interesting part is the LTM mount version of lenses. So the US and primary Soviet administration forced CZJ to build LTM versions after WWII.

There is another list that shows a Sonnar 5cm f2 for Pau 2 (a photographic machine gun???). So there was military use for the Sonnar after the war too.

The report shows the chaos surrounding Zeiss and the German photographic industry in this time. Starvation, Tuberculosis and escape is mentioned not only for CZJ but other known companies too. It mentions quality issues and missing material and parts. You see departing interests and a lot of force. Even after giving the order to dismantle the Jena fabrication the Soviets did not stop to force CZJ to push the rebuild of the photographic production. Until June 1948 the Soviets controlled the whole planing of all photographic companies in East Germany.

The subsidiary companies tried to escape the control of Jena. Zeiss Opton became the head later. But even Zeiss Ikon in Dresden wanted to build their own optics. The report mentions that Zeiss Ikon utilized the Dresden Zeiss site (that was not destroyed) and that they were better prepared for that task than Meyer Görlitz of that time. CZJ tried to keep the control over all the German industry even in this years.The history of the Zeiss Ikon site in Dresden Reick lies mostly in the shadow for now. But you can find a CIA report from 1952 here. 😄
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Vielen Dank fuer Alles. That is a lot of work and deep research. And fortunately it seems you can understand Technical German. Immediate postwar Germany had to be just hellishly confusing and depressing. And there were a lot of low-level decisions over who got what. Fortunately Germany has been re-united and the immediate postwar Sturm und Drang is a distant memory. And still the CZJ lenses command respect over their design and manufacture, some almost a century old. So wie Oma sagtete, "Es ist immer Deutscher besser." ;o) Thanks for your persistent and excellent work.
 
I tried to find the old "Irregular Production Sonnars" thread to post this, but can not for the life of me find it.
So here it goes instead.

I managed to pick up a second "Sturzvisier" Sonnar for a reasonable price given its almost perfect condition.
The serial number is just 28 lenses earlier than the one I have got, assuming they got made in sequential order, that is.

Since these lenses have already been discussed I will just walk through some observations and things of note instead.

The lens follows the "second helical" construction with a nub (shown below) engaging the second helical which engages the rangefinder cam so that a 58mm focal length lens reads correct on Leica standard. Others use a sloped cam. I am still unsure which rangefinder coupling mechanism came first. Perhaps this one since the serial is very early - the 15th made - if we suppose production started at 1407000.

IMG_9528 copy.jpgIMG_9527 copy.jpg

Above are images of the two primary helicals, the rangefinder driver on the left and the main lens helical on the right. You can also see the groove cut into the primary helical in which a screw rides, so that the focus travel is limited from infinity to 1meter. You can also still see aluminum machining flakes, I assume I was was the first one inside this lens since its making. As with my other removing the screw does not help you remove the focus scale ring at all.

IMG_9526 copy.jpg

As with my previous lens the aperture mechanism is quite similar in construction to CZ Opton Sonnars and comes out in one piece which makes service easy.
It is held in position by two grub screws.

With that out of the way let's compare the two lenses:
  • My first one is partially coated, this one is fully coated - both coatings are a very pale blue
  • This lens is marked "V" for "Vergütet" I assume, the other is marked "T" for "Transparent" Zeiss trademark name - I have also seen an uncoated example marked "Nc" -- I guess for "Non Coated" ?
  • This lens, being fully coated has higher contrast than the other partially-coated copy (big surprise here!)
  • This lens has plenty of focus shift and has been factory set for f2.8 optimal rangefinder focus, the other copy has none I can detect on my APS-C digital camera
  • This lens has an almost flat field of focus, the other one has a strongly curved field which is quite noticeable at infinity
  • This lens is not as sharp as the other copy which is astonishingly sharp wide open (as discussed in another thread)
  • Both are of identical mechanical construction
  • Both lenses use a dot after the serial number and after the indication of the focal length, which is given in centimeters f=5.8cm.
  • Both lenses have the rear triplet permanently mated to the body by the six spanner slot piece
  • Both lenses aperture scale is a bit "optimistic" and rotate past f11, the minimum marked aperture.
  • Both lenses have the position marked as f8 closer to f6.7 in "real stops" and f11 is about f9.5 according to my digital camera (real LTM Sonnars are spot-on)
016336_01_zeiss_sonnar_58mm_f1.5_l_jpg.png

Lastly as said, here is the "NC" non-coated version of the lens. Image taken from a Japanese sellers website.
 
You might been looking for this thread here.

Another irregular production Sonnar

I did not see that one- would have grabbed it.
www.rangefinderforum.com www.rangefinderforum.com

Interesting comparison. Have you measured the glass elements? Are they equal? It is strange that one shows a very flat and the other a very curved FOV. In my understanding the coating has no effect on the flatness of view. Since one is sharper than the other it might hint to different lens designs. But sharpness differences might be be a result of age, production or decentering. Would be interesting if both lenses share the same optics.

The red V is not a trademark from Zeiss. This was used by Meyer Görlitz. The color of coating is untypical for Zeiss too.
 
Further Hacking of Zebra 180mm F2.8 Sonnar Makiflex Std by Nokton48, on Flickr


I further disassembled my 180mm F2.8 CZJ Zebra Sonnar, I removed more of the back mount. I then JB Welded it into a Recessed Plaubel Peco Junior Lens Board. I can now back just a bit further, it was like a macro lens close focus only when I got it. I also removed the metal hood as much as I could, so the rear of the lens doesn't strike the mirror in the Makiflex Standard. It has beautiful Sonnar bokeh, and now I can back up a teeny bit more. Still a Macro Only Lens. Well worth having IMO. BTW it only fits the Makiflex Standard, which has a bigger interior throat than the Auto Makiflex, and no interior automation cables. Need to hit the rear cell hood with some Flat Black Krylon. I used a Mini Hacksaw from Harbor Freight to shorten the rear hood.

Makiflex 180mm Sonnar Foma 200 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Makiflex Standard 180mm F2.8 Zeiss Sonnar wide-open, Foma 200, Microdol-X Epson 4490
 
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www.catawiki.com

Zeiss Ikon Contaflex TLR + einzigartiges custom Objektiv Prototyp? Twin lens reflex camera (TLR)

Aangeboden een zeer zeldzame Contaflex TLR met een zeer interessante, waarschijnlijk unieke lens. Eerst over het lichaam. De camera verkeert optisch in een zeer mooie verzamelwaardige staat. De sluiter loopt altijd precies op gehoor. De zoeker is helder en de camera stelt goed scherp. De...
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That is a quite strange Contaflex Sonnar 5cm f2. It is missing the name ring but got a brass lens hood. Luckily the seller added a ton of photos and there is a serial at the rear end of this lens. The serial is 2211493 that puts it right in a batch with other Contaflex Sonnar 5cm f2 lenses from 1937. Any thoughts on this one?
 
The lens is also missing the entire front element. For this generation of lens the front element would have been glued/press-fit into an also serial stamped (last 5 digits usually) brass mount. The name ring would have retained it - that is the name rings secondary function. In fact you can still see the holes in the optical mount near the top, through which the grub screws would be put. They're there to prevent the name-ring from being spun off if someone is roughly mounting a filter or hood.

The internals look 100% identical to a collapsible Contax Sonnar of the same period. So, it's hard for me to say whether or not this was actually a Contaflex Sonnar or if this is someone's failed attempt at a repair/substitution, perhaps to replace a damaged element or the entire lens assembly.

It's also likely that this person hit a snag due to the internal assembly being slightly different and that's why the front is missing, they got that far and then gave up. Because it's likely they did not succeed in getting it all to fit inside the Contaflex lens shell. If I recall the Contaflex Sonnars have a steeper more angled name-ring and are more recessed into the housing. A 2.2mil would have already had the "flat" name-ring. This means the vertical positioning of elements would be not correct.

IIRC it's not possible to put a 1.6mil (mid-term, chrome, rigid f2) Sonnar aperture actuator on a 2.2mil one. The shape is subtly different and it will not be possible to get it to work well. I tried it the other way to try and salvage a basket case rigid early Sonnar, but as stated it did not work due to subtle differences in shape and overall outline of the part.
 
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To clarify, if I remember correctly you can put the aperture actuator "cup" on - but since the shape is different there is basically no friction point and it will rattle around loosely and no amount of grease (well no amount of grease that I consider sane) would fix that. This obviously means that the reverse (as the above person likely tried) would not fit at all.

A similar thing happened again with 2.0million 5cm f/2 Sonnars and the 2.6million on-ward wartime aluminum Sonnars. It is possible to substitute the "aperture" cup by itself but it is a very loose fit and the aperture will move by walking around with the lens. Not really practical. I have not tried to see if one could move the optical elements over (rear group is most likely possible - more skeptical about the front pieces)

Basically long winded story short: even if lenses look externally (nearly) identical Zeiss for whatever reason tweaked the internal shapes and parts nearly continuously. Perhaps one reason is that the f/2 Sonnar was likely their top seller and any efficiencies gained there would have paid off more quickly compared to smaller run lenses such as the f/1.5 Sonnar.
 
Another 5cm f1.5 LTM Sonnar from eBay. Lens was sold as is, was $228, there were only two bidders. Overall the lens is in pretty good condition, aside from from some scattered damage to the coating on the front element and a bit of haze inside. Surface of front element has a few fine scratches/cleaning marks, I have seen much worse. The lens indexes properly, focus is nice and smooth, is missing one screw on focus ring. Close focus at one meter wide open is good, infinity focus is about 210 meters. Based on the images from Sony a7iii, lens may have a de-centered element, will check when I take lens apart to clean it. Optical block of the lens is brass, focusing mount, aperture ring and variable stand-off ring appear to be aluminum. No CZJ serial number on fixture for rear triplet, small red dot on aperture index, serial number on name ring is not shown in Thiele's book. This looks like another transition lens. I would be interested in the opinions of the Sonnar geeks:)

 
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@dexdog- looks similar to one I picked up years ago from an RFF member. The Middle triplet was not fully polished. I replaced that, but mechanics were not great. I ended up trading one of my pre-war converted Sonnars for it, just to have as an oddball Sonnar from this period. Try some shots with it. I worked on one of these lenses that had the middle triplet "hot mounted" in the barrel rather than properly cemented, then put in place.
 
2.877.010v4b ZJ LT as FCarl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T Nr.
22​
black2TLTMv4dots, m, red app dot, red focus arrow, ZI fonts on name ring + apt ring + focus scales

I have seen this one too but after evaluation marked it as fake. Red dot aperture mark + wrong engraving fonts on all parts is a clear sign that this is not an authentic lens. The serial falls in a range of serials that is not missing in Thiele but blocked with other lenses. I have not seen a single valid lens in this block of Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 lenses.

I wrote ZI fonts. ZI as Zeiss Ikon. The same font is used by Zeiss Oberkochen. But don't rush to conclusions. It is a strange coinsidence but almost all German lens manufacturers use this font after WWII. Zeiss Oberkochen, Leitz, Meyer Görlitz and even Carl Zeiss Jena started to use it some years after the war. There are no real hints who created those fake lenses. For me this is a black market lens. Made for the black market by some unknown workshops. They needed access to the Carl Zeiss Jena factory for parts and maybe even machines and tools. And they were skilled workers.

Thank you for sharing the photos and details. I was interested to see if there is a CZJ serial on the rear fixture. But there is none. I was expecting this. Since the wrong fonts are all over the lens I could imagine that there is no authentic lens block in there. But that is even more puzzling. How did those German black market workshops get their hands on the glass, grinded lens elements? Producing those lens elements, gluing those Sonnar lens blocks is a difficult and time consuming work. You can't do this in your kitchen or hobby basement. Even today very skilled people like @Sonnar Brian can not simply grind lens elements and glue them to a new Sonnar lens block. I think those craftsmen were (ex) employees of CZJ and had tools and machines from the factory to do all of the metal and (maybe) glass work.
 
Rauber, I was on my way to correcting my statement about the serial number when I saw your post, and I agree with what you stated.
 
Räuber said:
2.877.010v4b ZJ LT as FCarl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T Nr.
22​
black2TLTMv4dots, m, red app dot, red focus arrow, ZI fonts on name ring + apt ring + focus scales

I think those craftsmen were (ex) employees of CZJ and had tools and machines from the factory to do all of the metal and (maybe) glass work.
Click to expand...
The machining of the shiny aluminum on the inside of the lens is really nice, whoever did the work knew what they were doing. Also, the construction of the rear lens triplet is different than wartime Sonnars, only one slotted ring instead of two. I think that all lens surfaces are coated, will find out for sure when I take it apart for cleaning
 
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I took the glass out of the irregular production lens as seen in post #192. Sure looks like CZJ parts, especially the fixture for the rear triplet, except the threaded bits are usually all black in Zeiss products of the time. The inside of the optical block was grungy with old grease, had to be careful because I found that alcohol was dissolving the paint use to blacken surfaces of optical block and sides of lens groups.

 
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Got haze cleaned off the glass surfaces, all appear to be coated. When I took the lens apart I noticed that the retaining ring for the middle group was a bit loose, not enough to make the thing rattle when I shook it, but not as snug as usual. Upon putting the lens back together, I noticed that the front element was about 2mm smaller than the fixture it fits into, which probably explains why I originally thought that the lens had de-centering issues. It took me two tries, but I got the element centered and tightened down the name ring.

Infinity focus f 1.5. You can almost make out the red STOP sign at center of frame at 205 meters. The second pic is a center crop of the first. STOP sign is now pretty sharp and clear, formerly looked like severe astigmatism or a series of slightly overlapping images.

 
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