CES: Please Report X100 News

[Arjay]

Also, be aware that the X100 is capable of 5 F/s; and the live-view shutter must do a C/O/C/O in every shot. So the total shutter action cannot be too bad.

While I agree with you that some kind of C/O/C/O shutter action will be required in shooting a series with 'continuous' (or better intermittent) AF, IMO it isn't clear whether a mechanical shutter needs to be part of this action.

When using contrast-detect autofocus (CDAF), the camera goes through a cycle of the following actions as the shutter is pressed:

1. shutter press to AF position
2. CDAF focusing with subsequent 'in focus' confirmation
3. Shutter press to capture position
4. switch off live-view mode
5. clear pixel buffer (delete last live-view picture)
6. prime pixels (equivalent to start of first focal plane shutter curtain)
7. End exposure (equivalent to start of second focal plane shutter curtain) and pixel buffer readout to memory card
8. Return to live-view mode

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sequence doesn't necessarily involve any mechanical shutter action. A mechanical shutter would only be mandatory for phase-detect autofocus (PDAF), where the light must be deflected through some kind of moving mirror array to a dedicated AF sensor (This is how DSLRs operate), and for certain types of image sensors that do not contain any gating circuitry. Such sensors would be constantly light-sensitive and thus require a mechanical shutter for correct operation.

So, the actual shutter lag (steps 3 through 7) could indeed be minimal if these steps could be performed exclusively in electronics.

This still leaves us with two questions:

• Can steps 3 through 7 be exclusively executed electronically - how will the individual sensor pixels be protected against 'blooming' (pixel charge bleeding to neighboring photosites in case of massive overexposure - this was one of the shortcomings if the Nikon D70's hybrid shutter concept)?
• How long will the CDAF-based focusing lag be (Steps 1 & 2)? These steps will forcibly have to be performed in some kind of live-view mode, and could be omitted for the second shot and up in a rapid-fire shot sequence.

 

[videogamemaker]

Was I witnessing a very long shutter lag in video 3? It looked like he pushed down, it made a weird beep, pause, then simulated shutter release. I hope I am interpreting this wrong, because if I'm not, this camera would be a joke for spontaneous shots.

Also, does this camera look a little short and stumpy? It's like it isn't long enough, making it appear stumpy. Oh well, this is simply nitpicking.

Depending on AF mode, even my 5D can take a long time to take a photo. But if I turn off "wait for AF confirm" it will be lighting quick. Since these still seem to be the same non-functional cameras from photokina, I wouldn't read anything into the shutter lag from videos. The numbers they have released on shutter lag seem plenty promising.

As far as beeping, almost every small camera out has beep per button, so does my phone. It's annoying as hell and very easy to turn off. I will eat my hat and every hat on this forum if they leave the beeps as unable to be muted, it's just not going to happen. And the staff that runs these trade fair booths are notorious for liking low level consumer stuff like beeping buttons or whatnot. These are not the lens designers, I promise.

Nikon D3 has a shutter lag of 0.085 second, and we to believe X100 actually has ~the same shutter lag as Nikon D3 at 0.01?

Watching one of the videos it was quite clear that shutter lag was very much present, at least in this demo model, it appeared even slower than most high-end P&S cameras.

The Nikon also has a mirror it has to clear before it can take a photo, where the x100 does not. Obviously we have to wait and see, but you complained before that Fuji hasn't released enough hard numbers, but the one where they have, you say you don't believe. So which is it?

wow, even when I thought it would be $800, I was leery. $1200 can buy a lot of lenses for a Nex ...

Yeah! You can buy the kit lens, and the 16mm and the.... oh, there aren't any fast primes for the Nex.. or 35 mm equiv... or 50mm, or 85...

I would love a Nex, even without a viewfinder, but till they release some real lenses (a 35mm f/2 or faster, a 50mm f/2, and a fast portrait prime, it might as well be a fixed lens P&S also, because the lens options are paltry, with no new ones announced or on the horizon)

 

[jsrockit]

So, hypothetically; you can have a X100 for about $1200.00 or you have a chance to buy say a Leica M2 with a nice 50mm Summicron for about the same price or maybe a bit more.

On the one hand you have an usable heirloom, in the other you have a future garage sale item. Whattaya gonna do?

I'm going to buy the tool that fits my needs now... the Fuji X100. Heirloom... jesus. I can't wait to hand down my 60 year old diamond encrusted hammer to my son when he turns 18 and builds his own log cabin out in the wilderness.

 

[Arjay]

So, hypothetically; you can have a X100 for about $1200.00 or you have a chance to buy say a Leica M2 with a nice 50mm Summicron for about the same price or maybe a bit more.

On the one hand you have an usable heirloom, in the other you have a future garage sale item. Whattaya gonna do?

Good grief - spare yourself the buyer's remorse by buying a tool you'll depeciate by using instead of preemptively constructing an ideology of getting a potential collectible because you might buy a product with reduced usability.

BTW - I wear a Seico watch for everyday use, and I have a 2k$ Omega watch that I don't dare wearing stored in my cupboard for fear of breaking it. Do you think my Omega purchase was a clever move?

 

[Mephiloco]

So, hypothetically; you can have a X100 for about $1200.00 or you have a chance to buy say a Leica M2 with a nice 50mm Summicron for about the same price or maybe a bit more.

On the one hand you have an usable heirloom, in the other you have a future garage sale item. Whattaya gonna do?

I didn't realize when I was buying my camera gear that it was intended to be an heirloom, I just use it to take pictures. While film is viable now, who's to say all our RF gear won't be obsolete in under 20 years? What happens if Kodak and Fuji keep consolidating their film lines and we're left with only a handful of choices as far as film stock while digital sensors become and essentially affording us more film stock alternatives.

I think the X100 looks promising, I'd love to have one, but at that price point I'd probably get a Summilux or Super-Angulon. I'm not saying the X100 won't be an amazing camera, currently it looks like it will be, but to me $1200 makes little sense to me.

 

[semilog]

On the one hand you have an usable heirloom, in the other you have a future garage sale item. Whattaya gonna do?

Depends.

Do you want usable ISO 6400?

Do you want to be able to shoot a ton of frames with almost no incremental cost?

Do you want, or require, the ability to get electronic files immediately?

Do you perhaps not have the time to deal with acquiring and processing film?

Do you have reasons to shoot at 5 fps?

Do you hate scanning, but require digital files?

Do you not have a darkroom, and understand that scanned film is in most respects technically inferior to direct digital capture?

Do you want a high-quality VF camera that is capable of live view with perfectly accurate frame lines and zero parallax, even close-up?

Do you shoot color, and think that the "usable heirloom" value of an M2 (vs. its "well-machined paperweight value") is wildly overstated given that color film may be harder and harder to get, or to get well-processed, over (say) the next decade?

Answer yes to any of these, and the M2 is probably a dumb* choice.

^--- and for those of you who might have missed it, as a matter of fact I do think this thread is a rude and foolish place to re-hash the film v. digital debate. Now, can we please get back to discussing the Fuji X-100 here @ Rangefinderforum.com > Non Rangefinder Cameras > Point-N-Shoot > Fuji X100?


*And yes, I am still shooting with an M6 😛.

 

[Frankie]

While I agree with you that some kind of C/O/C/O shutter action will be required in shooting a series with 'continuous' (or better intermittent) AF, IMO it isn't clear whether a mechanical shutter needs to be part of this action.......

I am commenting strictly on shutter lag, which must be the time needed before the shutter can be fired...namely C and buffer drained only. And according to Fuji...believe it or not...is to be ~10ms.

Whatever the camera is doing before the shutter firing is user dependent. And after the shutter is tripped, then exposure during set [could be 30s] and C/O/C + buffer drained again before the next firing.

If the X100 is to perform at 5F/s, the the slowest shutter speed supported could not be much slower than 1/200s...OK, 1/190s.

No matter what unknown high speed mode is supported, the shutter has to cycle through C/buffer drained/O/C/buffer drained/O.

AND, whatever Nikon or others can manage in a dSLR is irrelevant.

 

[Frankie]

......^--- and for those of you who might have missed it, as a matter of fact I do think this thread is a rude and foolish place to re-hash the film v. digital debate. Now, can we please get back to discussing the Fuji X-100 here @ Rangefinderforum.com > Non Rangefinder Cameras > Point-N-Shoot > Fuji X100?

AND, I think the least one should do is to read Fuji's own literature and think a little before arguing or opinionate'ing. 🙄

 

[cosmonaut]

I ain't paying $1000.00 for a P&S camera. I think the X100 stands to be one big disappointment unless the IQ and focus speed are not stellar.

 

[Arjay]

I think we're talking at crossed purposes here.

I am commenting strictly on shutter lag, which must be the time needed before the shutter can be fired...namely C and buffer drained only. And according to Fuji...believe it or not...is to be ~10ms.

Whatever the camera is doing before the shutter firing is user dependent. And after the shutter is tripped, then exposure during set [could be 30s] and C/O/C + buffer drained again before the next firing.

Agreed, but my point was that opening and closing might be done electronically, and not by way of opening and closing a mechanical shutter. If the 10ms that Fuji states are correct, then any mechanical shutter activity can be ruled out.

AND, whatever Nikon or others can manage in a dSLR is irrelevant.

Not quite, because if most of the shutter activity is executed via electronics, then the charge bleeding effect I described is a very real risk, and it could also happen on the X100. After all, this is why Nikon abandoned the Hybrid shutter concept (and the electronically gated image sensor technology).

But - to really find out, we'll have to wait until the first sample files out of an X100 will be published. You can be sure that someone will ask for sampe files with e.g. the sun directly in the image. That's when charge bleeding will happen, and I can assure you - if it happens, it'll look ugly.

 

[literiter]

Depends.


Do you shoot color, and think that the "usable heirloom" value of an M2 (vs. its "well-machined paperweight value") is wildly overstated given that color film may be harder and harder to get, or to get well-processed, over (say) the next decade?

Answer yes to any of these, and the M2 is probably a dumb* choice.

^--- and for those of you who might have missed it, as a matter of fact I do think this thread is a rude and foolish place to re-hash the film v. digital debate. Now, can we please get back to discussing the Fuji X-100 here @ Rangefinderforum.com > Non Rangefinder Cameras > Point-N-Shoot > Fuji X100?


*And yes, I am still shooting with an M6 😛.

How do I get my own X100, is it from the Bradford Exchange or a camera store??

I'll stop now.

 

[semilog]

I ain't paying $1000.00 for a P&S camera. I think the X100 stands to be one big disappointment unless the IQ and focus speed are not stellar.

Don't know about focus speed, there is no reason why IQ shouldn't be comparable to one of the better APS-C cameras (say, D300) with a stellar lens (again, see Fuji's MTF Graphs for this camera) mounted. We already know that this is true for the NEX cameras, E-PL1, etc with the better lenses.

I think that a lot of people who haven't actually used a compact APS-C or m4/3 camera alongside an APS-C DSLR still don't get, at a visceral level, that the image quality is functionally indistinguishable, with any variation caused by lens choice or (more often) deficiencies in shooting technique.

 

[jsrockit]

I ain't paying $1000.00 for a P&S camera. I think the X100 stands to be one big disappointment unless the IQ and focus speed are not stellar.

What makes it a point and shoot? Auto-focus?

It has a shutter speed dial and aperture ring, it has a large sensor, it has a MF mode, it has a VF, it has a max aperture of f/2 ...

Why the derogatory attitude towards a camera that is no more of a point and shoot than any other digital camera?

 

[tapesonthefloor]

What else could the camera know?

I can imagine if the user informed the camera that continuous shooting does not require the C/O/C/O actions...thus none taken. But, the camera must close the shutter and drain the data onto the buffer first. The default action had to be C/O/C/O...no?

For some reason I thought you were talking about the VF shutter. Clearly, it's my hybrid viewfinder fetish speaking.

 

[Arjay]

jsrockit, don't feed the troll. 😉

I understand it must be frustrating for Leica users to see that their favored company just falls a little short uf sufficient R&D power ...

 

[tapesonthefloor]

What makes it a point and shoot? Auto-focus?

It has a shutter speed dial and aperture ring, it has a large sensor, it has a MF mode, it has a VF, it has a max aperture of f/2 ...

Agreed. The term "point & shoot" has been around for decades now, and it has almost always referred to a camera whose controls contrast with the common consumer cameras of the 70s by having no dials for aperture and shutter speed. Point & shoots would be further simplified in the 80s and 90s by the removal of focus rings (with auto-focus becoming mainstream) and ISO settings (with the advent of DX encoding).

The Fujifilm ex-hundred is no more a point & shoot than a Canon AE-1.

 

[Frankie]

.....but my point was that opening and closing might be done electronically, and not by way of opening and closing a mechanical shutter.

If that is so, why have a shutter at all? [But we now know it has a shutter.]

Electronically, O/1/0/1 would be the fastest, most accurate and most reliable. I have yet to come across a "shutter" like that except the Leica [Heerbrugg, not Solms; different owner] ADS-80...costs $2 million++

The ADS-80 virtual shutter opens and closes electronically every 6u [in image space] during flight.

 

[Arjay]

If that is so, why have a shutter at all? [But we now know it has a shutter.]

We won't know before the camera will actually be on the market. So all we can do now is to speculate.

I could imagine (caution - speculation) that matrix-based exposure measurement might determine that a strong light source would be in the FOV, thus activating the mechanical shutter. If activated, this shutter might run at a max speed of 1/250s, thus mainly serving as a burn-in protection for the image sensor. I'm sure that sensor can be damaged by direct sunlight much more easily than a shutter curtain made of cloth. And the sensor is much more expensive.

The ADS-80 virtual shutter opens and closes electronically every 6u [in image space] during flight.

I don't know this product, so I have no idea of its shutter implementation.

I only recall that the electronic shutter in my D70 is nothing more that a simple on/off gate that is capable of desensitizing the sensor. This works fine unless a very strong point light source bombards the sensor, in which case charge would be acquired in the sensor's photosites in spite of it being disabled. What makes matters worse, this charge also bleeds into neighboring pixels as well as into the column readout circuitry, effectively creating nasty bright vertical lines that should not be there.

 

[splitimageview]

Every camera I know of is ultimately a point and shoot... 😉

 

[Frankie]

Every camera I know of is ultimately a point and shoot... 😉

Including all Leica-M's set to zone focus based on sunny-16.