MCTuomey
Veteran
What Gid says.
Sell off some of the glass to defray the M9's cost if need be, after you've been able to try what you have on the new camera. Pare down to a simple M9 kit, body and a couple lenses. As Vince said, an M9 is now, an M10 is later. Later may be never.
As to a digital workflow, you'll figure one out that works for you. Give it time. And if you fear culling through many hundreds of images, well, don't make so many. You're a film guy, you know how to be selective.
Sell off some of the glass to defray the M9's cost if need be, after you've been able to try what you have on the new camera. Pare down to a simple M9 kit, body and a couple lenses. As Vince said, an M9 is now, an M10 is later. Later may be never.
As to a digital workflow, you'll figure one out that works for you. Give it time. And if you fear culling through many hundreds of images, well, don't make so many. You're a film guy, you know how to be selective.
zvos1
Well-known
Keith, you know you want it, go for it!! You will be better off financially than doing something stupid like investing in shares...
Adanac
Well-known
Keith, if the crop factor isn't a total show stopper for you, maybe it is worth your time looking at the Ricoh GXR with the Mount A12 module. The module offers an APS-C sensor, 1.5x crop, 12.3 megapixels. No anti-alias filter.
Probably you can think of this combo as being similar (slightly different crop) to the M8.
Unlike an adapted NEX-5N or NEX-7, the GXR offers a native M Mount. I've seen zero problems reaching infinity with my Zeiss lenses - in fact all hit infinity at the stop. My one CV lens, the 75/2.5, focuses past infinity but it does that on a film rangefinder too.
Like the M9, there is no anti-alias filter in the M Mount A12. Unlike the M8, there is an IR filter. Unlike the M8/M9, the GXR isn't a rangefinder - it's an electronic finder camera.
Not sure what these go for in your part of the world; in the US the base body is $349, the M Mount A12 module is $649. An optional EVF is ~ $200.
I'm using my M lenses on the GXR because I just won't spend seven large on a M9 or even five grand... I'd much rather put funds into lenses than bodies. I know I'd enjoy the M9 but I can't go there. The GXR might be a placeholder for me but it is an enjoyable placeholder - the lenses perform very well; the camera includes colour cast and vignetting correction in-camera like the M9 but with my selection of lenses I've not felt compelled to enable it. I have the ZM 18/4, 25/2.8, 35/2, 50/1.5 and the CV 75. Certainly colour shifts are minimal, vignetting with some of these lenses is what you'd expect but of course being a crop sensor the lenses have a fairly easy time of it.
True, it isn't a rangefinder, but a live view camera certainly offers advantages of its own.
Maybe Ricoh will surprise us all and release a full frame module for the GXR system down the road. But if not I still would consider this camera a keeper and my M lenses get used rather than sitting on a shelf waiting for a reasonable cost full frame electronic finder camera.
The Fujifilm X-Pro1 might also be a good host for M lenses but as yet we don't know if they'll make it a truly great home for M lenses. I have my doubts given the camera doesn't offer any focus assists beyond magnification - the finder in the X100 and X-Pro1 just doesn't have enough resolution to support quick and accurate focus via zoom, in my opinion, based on my own experience with the X100. What focus assists are provided could change between now and launch though so I'm keeping an open mind for now, although I like the GXR so much the X-Pro1 would have to offer a compelling reason to switch for me to even day dream about doing so... and it doesn't offer what ultimately I want - a full frame sensor.
Probably you can think of this combo as being similar (slightly different crop) to the M8.
Unlike an adapted NEX-5N or NEX-7, the GXR offers a native M Mount. I've seen zero problems reaching infinity with my Zeiss lenses - in fact all hit infinity at the stop. My one CV lens, the 75/2.5, focuses past infinity but it does that on a film rangefinder too.
Like the M9, there is no anti-alias filter in the M Mount A12. Unlike the M8, there is an IR filter. Unlike the M8/M9, the GXR isn't a rangefinder - it's an electronic finder camera.
Not sure what these go for in your part of the world; in the US the base body is $349, the M Mount A12 module is $649. An optional EVF is ~ $200.
I'm using my M lenses on the GXR because I just won't spend seven large on a M9 or even five grand... I'd much rather put funds into lenses than bodies. I know I'd enjoy the M9 but I can't go there. The GXR might be a placeholder for me but it is an enjoyable placeholder - the lenses perform very well; the camera includes colour cast and vignetting correction in-camera like the M9 but with my selection of lenses I've not felt compelled to enable it. I have the ZM 18/4, 25/2.8, 35/2, 50/1.5 and the CV 75. Certainly colour shifts are minimal, vignetting with some of these lenses is what you'd expect but of course being a crop sensor the lenses have a fairly easy time of it.
True, it isn't a rangefinder, but a live view camera certainly offers advantages of its own.
Maybe Ricoh will surprise us all and release a full frame module for the GXR system down the road. But if not I still would consider this camera a keeper and my M lenses get used rather than sitting on a shelf waiting for a reasonable cost full frame electronic finder camera.
The Fujifilm X-Pro1 might also be a good host for M lenses but as yet we don't know if they'll make it a truly great home for M lenses. I have my doubts given the camera doesn't offer any focus assists beyond magnification - the finder in the X100 and X-Pro1 just doesn't have enough resolution to support quick and accurate focus via zoom, in my opinion, based on my own experience with the X100. What focus assists are provided could change between now and launch though so I'm keeping an open mind for now, although I like the GXR so much the X-Pro1 would have to offer a compelling reason to switch for me to even day dream about doing so... and it doesn't offer what ultimately I want - a full frame sensor.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
And I'm really surprised that no one has even mentioned the M10-P!
tstermitz
Well-known
I sympathize with Keith's agony, but I think I understand. He really enjoys the full-frame, rangefinder experience, and he has a good collection of M-lenses. I can't imagine he would sell the lenses, so the only choices are to live with a crop-factor camera (which he has tried), pay the price of an M9 (which is kind of high, okay really high) or wait for the M10 (which will probably have superior ISO and focussing aids at a MUCH higher price).
I've gone through the same mind-game.
I lucked into some Leica lenses with an M6 a couple years back, and more recently lucked into a deep-discount M9 with some lenses. Rationally, today, with the way the prices have gone up, I couldn't justify either package. I should cash out and replace my PoS car or pay off my credit card, but since I got them cheaply I can justify using them as cameras or investment.
In terms of image quality, I came to the realization that these lenses truly are special. I believe they would draw as nicely on crop-frame, but I'd lose DOF opportunities, and it would be somewhat of a waste as Leica glass draws that quality across a full frame sensor.
In terms of price, I could more easily justify the costs if I sold the M9 and bought a NEX-7. In exchange, that would give me rather better ISO, and perhaps improved focussing aids. I don't care about more resolution. I do believe mirror-less is about to eclipse SLR for all except sports or weddings, which I don't really do.
In terms of ROI, I probably would be better off selling the M9, buying a NEX-7 and waiting to upgrade to the M10, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the M10 will be priced rather higher than the M9, and that M9 prices won't drop that much, that fast. Leica is like that; even the used M7 and M8 are pretty pricy!
In short: M9 is the only Full Frame, rangefinder solution that uses Leica lenses. Aside from the cost, the only cost is a sensor with ISO quality that doesn't match 2012 sensors.
I've gone through the same mind-game.
I lucked into some Leica lenses with an M6 a couple years back, and more recently lucked into a deep-discount M9 with some lenses. Rationally, today, with the way the prices have gone up, I couldn't justify either package. I should cash out and replace my PoS car or pay off my credit card, but since I got them cheaply I can justify using them as cameras or investment.
In terms of image quality, I came to the realization that these lenses truly are special. I believe they would draw as nicely on crop-frame, but I'd lose DOF opportunities, and it would be somewhat of a waste as Leica glass draws that quality across a full frame sensor.
In terms of price, I could more easily justify the costs if I sold the M9 and bought a NEX-7. In exchange, that would give me rather better ISO, and perhaps improved focussing aids. I don't care about more resolution. I do believe mirror-less is about to eclipse SLR for all except sports or weddings, which I don't really do.
In terms of ROI, I probably would be better off selling the M9, buying a NEX-7 and waiting to upgrade to the M10, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the M10 will be priced rather higher than the M9, and that M9 prices won't drop that much, that fast. Leica is like that; even the used M7 and M8 are pretty pricy!
In short: M9 is the only Full Frame, rangefinder solution that uses Leica lenses. Aside from the cost, the only cost is a sensor with ISO quality that doesn't match 2012 sensors.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
I agree with Adanac, the GXR is the second best thing after the M9. I am very seriously considering it, but rumors about an upcoming A16 module made me postpone the decision for a while. I might get the M10 too if Leica did their homework correctly. The M9 is not a good idea IMHO. The price will drop as soon as the M10 is announced in 6-7 months so it's not really the best time to get one.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
There's just been a full M9 technical review put up at http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/M9/M9A.HTM
It seems to acquit it's self rather well, giving much newer sensors a good run for their money.
I don't regret having just ordered one a couple of weeks ago - rather than waiting 7... 15 months for the M10, or MX if current camera naming trends are anything to go by, to arrive.
ps. the GXR did not work out for me - that's what pushed me into getting the M9.
I concluded EVFs are for framing AF lenses - not manually focusing on fine contrast details.
It seems to acquit it's self rather well, giving much newer sensors a good run for their money.
I don't regret having just ordered one a couple of weeks ago - rather than waiting 7... 15 months for the M10, or MX if current camera naming trends are anything to go by, to arrive.
ps. the GXR did not work out for me - that's what pushed me into getting the M9.
I concluded EVFs are for framing AF lenses - not manually focusing on fine contrast details.
nebraska
Member
I'd suggest that you go for the M9. It is a wonderful camera for casual and serious shooting. I have not missed the high ISO capabilities of other cameras (e.g. D700/800). With your fast RF lenses you can handle the vast majority of photo opportunities that come your way. The often cited inferiority of the screen is a complaint that comes primarily from individuals who are addicted to screen peeping. What would an M10 really add that you cannot do with a M9 right now? What I discern from your initial statement is that you cannot continue film work for various reasons. The M9 will do far more for you than the M2. I am not aware of any high speed film that can rival the quality of a DNG file from the M9 at the same ISO. Besides there is no more need for a messy darkroom with smelling chemicals. A M9 will give you what you desire and/or need.
oftheherd
Veteran
I have absolutely no advice for you Keith. I'm not in your position; not having your experiences with digital, nor your collection of lenses. But it is nice to see you back at RFF sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Good luck in your decision. If you can afford it, the M9 seems at least a good experiment. I have the same problem with time to develop, or even photograph for that matter. I am working on it.
Again, good to see you posting. I look forward to hearing what path you take, how you feel about it, and what your results. are.
Good luck in your decision. If you can afford it, the M9 seems at least a good experiment. I have the same problem with time to develop, or even photograph for that matter. I am working on it.
Again, good to see you posting. I look forward to hearing what path you take, how you feel about it, and what your results. are.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
The one thing that bothers me about this line of thought is that you've basically projecting expectations into camera after camera. Now it's the M9 and it sounds a bit like it's just another iteration. It doesn't help that RFFers as a whole are always ready to support this line of thought.
It would be sad to see you get an M9, only to then post here how you're not really happy with this one either, like what happened with the X100.
Lss
Well-known
And you have the money for the M9. Just buy one.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
'Camera after camera' I'm mystified by that comment!
In the last two years I've bought one major photography item and that was my D700 and a couple of lenses ... which I'm totally satisfied with in the way it performs in the environment it was bought for. (work)
The X100 was a gift from this forum and when I realised it didn't really suit my style of shooting it was passed on to Paulfish with the agreement of RFF members that it was the correct thing to do. I had always said that if the camera didn't suit me this would be the scenario.
I've been really struggling for money over the last two or three years and have had to sell alot of photography gear to survive financially. Six months ago my father passed away and I was left a small sum of money of which I have spent very little so far ... I did get an F6 because it was a camera I've always wanted to own but even that is getting little use because of the lack of time to use film these days. I can afford the M9 if I choose to go that way and that is a privilege I never expected to experience ... thanks for attempting to make me feel guilty about it!
The people in this thread (as I expected) have offered balanced and sound advice IMO ... so I don't really see what your problem is there either.
Archiver
Veteran
Hi Keith,
Given your collection of lenses and desire for the FFE (Full Frame Experience!), I'd suggest that the M9 would suit you handsomely. $5500 might be a lot of money. Of course it is. And yet I shelled out AUD$9300 to get one near the beginning of 2010. I remember that blisteringly hot summer's day when I placed the M9 on the car seat for what seemed an interminably long drive back home!
Now I look back on that, I am still a bit perturbed that I spent that much on a camera body! But the images I have been able to take with it please me endlessly. I went to Japan with the M9 for three weeks and took scandalous numbers of photos, many of which I treasure. I use it almost every day and often have it stowed in my shoulder bag, even if it's just a day at the office.
I love the look of film, but I find the immediacy and ease of digital to be far above that of film. If you don't have the time to develop and scan your work, and that fear is cutting into your personal shooting, an M9 just might be the ticket for you. BUT you must allow yourself a 'digital only' time for a good several months, or at least keep your film usage down as much as possible. This is to balance the amount of money you'd spend on a M9 with what you would have spent on film.
The M10 is an unknown. Who knows what bugaboos lie in its as-yet unrevealed depths? I seem to recall a Leica rep saying that the M10 is going to be a more of an evolutionary step, than revolutionary. I would not expect much more than better high ISO and improved functions. And the price will be bananas. I have no plans whatsoever to buy a M10. I am very happy with my M9 and will continue to be for a good many years. I know its strengths and weaknesses and I'm satisfied with the current package.
If I could go back in time and buy a gently used M9 for $5500 I would absolutely jump at it.
Given your collection of lenses and desire for the FFE (Full Frame Experience!), I'd suggest that the M9 would suit you handsomely. $5500 might be a lot of money. Of course it is. And yet I shelled out AUD$9300 to get one near the beginning of 2010. I remember that blisteringly hot summer's day when I placed the M9 on the car seat for what seemed an interminably long drive back home!
Now I look back on that, I am still a bit perturbed that I spent that much on a camera body! But the images I have been able to take with it please me endlessly. I went to Japan with the M9 for three weeks and took scandalous numbers of photos, many of which I treasure. I use it almost every day and often have it stowed in my shoulder bag, even if it's just a day at the office.
I love the look of film, but I find the immediacy and ease of digital to be far above that of film. If you don't have the time to develop and scan your work, and that fear is cutting into your personal shooting, an M9 just might be the ticket for you. BUT you must allow yourself a 'digital only' time for a good several months, or at least keep your film usage down as much as possible. This is to balance the amount of money you'd spend on a M9 with what you would have spent on film.
The M10 is an unknown. Who knows what bugaboos lie in its as-yet unrevealed depths? I seem to recall a Leica rep saying that the M10 is going to be a more of an evolutionary step, than revolutionary. I would not expect much more than better high ISO and improved functions. And the price will be bananas. I have no plans whatsoever to buy a M10. I am very happy with my M9 and will continue to be for a good many years. I know its strengths and weaknesses and I'm satisfied with the current package.
If I could go back in time and buy a gently used M9 for $5500 I would absolutely jump at it.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
The "camera after camera" comment refers to the quoted bit, together with how you spoke about your former M8 in this thread, some comments you made elsewhere on your F6 purchase, and the comments about the X100 that started the support drive here on RFF in which I participated. You sound like you are searching for something in cameras and haven't really found it.
Searching for the right camera is fine with me and maybe you'll find it with the M9. But maybe you won't. I think you take fine pictures already and I would be sad to have you find out that that one isn't the thing either. But I do think it's a bit inappropriate after all to accuse me of trying to make you feel guilty. I certainly didn't mean to offend you, but why are you so easily offended by a simple thing like that?
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I aplogise for over reacting to that ... I guess I'm a little sensitive at benefiting from the death of my father in the form of a camera or any luxury item. My problem not yours!
I may or may not fit with the M9 as you say ... I do know I generally produce better output with a small uncomplicated camera and I'm quite comfortable with going digital until such time as I can organise my time a little better. That could be a year or two away at the moment though!
And I sincerely appreciated your support regarding the X100 ... it's a pity it didn't really work out for me.
kshapero
South Florida Man
Wow Keith, I think a lot of us are struggling with this (OK, I am). Recently I checked out the Pentax K-5 (gasp) as it is a very robust system, water resistant and has some really cool small primes as well as WR lenses. Could I be in love? With the demise of local labs and my 15 year absence from the darkroom, it pains me to even consider walking away (or selling off my M mounts and/or Nikkor manuals) from my stuff. Since I can not afford considering the M9 (I was downsized last December). I am okay with auto focus (I did not think I would be) but not focus peaking and the like for manual.
Go with the K-5 and it's subculture or stay with my film bodies and my Ricoh GX200? I know I will probably stay as is, so the beat goes on.....
Go with the K-5 and it's subculture or stay with my film bodies and my Ricoh GX200? I know I will probably stay as is, so the beat goes on.....
I was in this position last year. I decided to go for the M9 and I've never regretted it one bit. In fact, it is nice to just always be content with your camera body... knowing you got the camera that really want to use day in, day out. That said, it was crazy $ and I may not ever do it again. Luckily, Fuji seems to be a great back-up plan.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
M9 desire aside ... thanks for your thoughts/words and to Akiva as well.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds themselves in this dilemma ... it's tough because I truly love using film ... but I also like taking photographs and a change of medium is just that ... not the end of photography!
Gid
Well-known
Keith,
Its your life and your money. Do what will make you happy
Its your life and your money. Do what will make you happy
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Keith, strictly for what it's worth, our personal connection to the camera makes a difference; it's not just some object of utility only. It is a tool, and we love our tools. The connection of user to tool is important in producing the result. And, the result is two-fold, it's both the images and the experience.
If the M9 is revving your engine, then go for it.
Not for everyone. Not for me, for example, but if it's for you, then go for it.
Of course, make sure it will work for you in all respects, but you obviously know how to work that through.
If the M9 is revving your engine, then go for it.
Not for everyone. Not for me, for example, but if it's for you, then go for it.
Of course, make sure it will work for you in all respects, but you obviously know how to work that through.