KoNickon
Nick Merritt
A while ago I got a Contax III, early WWII vintage. A magnificent beast, I must say. The previous owner had sent it to Oleg Khalyavin for overhaul, and all seems to work well -- even the meter seems reasonably accurate, and cosmetically it's quite nice too.
I believe Oleg replaced the shutter tapes with Kiev tapes, and as we all know from reading Mr. Scherer's site, those aren't correct for the camera. So be it; all the speeds work. Of more concern is whether more than just the tapes were replaced -- could the shutter itself have been swapped with one from a Kiev? Is there a way to tell? I figured it could not have been swapped, since the Contax II and III permit changing shutter speeds with the shutter fully tensioned OR untensioned, while you must change Kiev shutter speeds only with the shutter wound fully.
I am able to change shutter speeds with the shutter untensioned, so I figure the Contax shutter shutter is still there. But setting the shutter speeds to the slowest settings, 1/5, 1/2 and B, can be very hard -- takes a real effort to turn the dial. Also, turning the wind knob I sometimes find there are one or two points of resistance, which is similar to Kievs I've owned. Maybe that's typical of the design, but it does makes me wonder whether there is a Ukrainian shutter in there.
Is there a way to tell at a glance if the shutter is the original one? (Do I need to get a life??)
Thanks.
I believe Oleg replaced the shutter tapes with Kiev tapes, and as we all know from reading Mr. Scherer's site, those aren't correct for the camera. So be it; all the speeds work. Of more concern is whether more than just the tapes were replaced -- could the shutter itself have been swapped with one from a Kiev? Is there a way to tell? I figured it could not have been swapped, since the Contax II and III permit changing shutter speeds with the shutter fully tensioned OR untensioned, while you must change Kiev shutter speeds only with the shutter wound fully.
I am able to change shutter speeds with the shutter untensioned, so I figure the Contax shutter shutter is still there. But setting the shutter speeds to the slowest settings, 1/5, 1/2 and B, can be very hard -- takes a real effort to turn the dial. Also, turning the wind knob I sometimes find there are one or two points of resistance, which is similar to Kievs I've owned. Maybe that's typical of the design, but it does makes me wonder whether there is a Ukrainian shutter in there.
Is there a way to tell at a glance if the shutter is the original one? (Do I need to get a life??)
Thanks.
ZeissFan
Veteran
Oh boy.
First off, the shutter is mechanically identical. Some of the materials are different, but the shutters' specs are the same.
Regarding the shutter "tapes," that's a load of B.S. that Henry is spouting. Because the shutters specs are identical (not similar), then the width and length of the shutter straps also are identical.
In fact, if you can't source the original material, you can use ribbon from a clothing supply store.
The problem with the Internet is that it's all too easy for someone to pass off personal bias as fact.
The one way to tell if you have a Kiev shutter (although it's not a certainty) is to look for the catch arm that holds the curtains after the shutter has been tensioned. The Zeiss Ikon shutter was made of a thick material, while the Kiev shutter's catch arm is very thin -- brass, I think.
Also, the cushioning material on the bottom drum of a Zeiss Ikon shutter is leather, while a Kiev uses a synthetic material.
However, it's very possible that the early Kievs used materials identical to Zeiss Ikon.
By the way, it's always tougher to tension the shutter at the slowest speeds. One of the advantages of the Contax IIa is that the rotation and effort required to tension the shutter didn't change regardless of the selected speed.
My own feeling is this: Don't worry about it.
What's better? A faulty Zeiss Ikon shutter or a working Kiev shutter? The answer is always the working shutter, regardless of the manufacturer.
First off, the shutter is mechanically identical. Some of the materials are different, but the shutters' specs are the same.
Regarding the shutter "tapes," that's a load of B.S. that Henry is spouting. Because the shutters specs are identical (not similar), then the width and length of the shutter straps also are identical.
In fact, if you can't source the original material, you can use ribbon from a clothing supply store.
The problem with the Internet is that it's all too easy for someone to pass off personal bias as fact.
The one way to tell if you have a Kiev shutter (although it's not a certainty) is to look for the catch arm that holds the curtains after the shutter has been tensioned. The Zeiss Ikon shutter was made of a thick material, while the Kiev shutter's catch arm is very thin -- brass, I think.
Also, the cushioning material on the bottom drum of a Zeiss Ikon shutter is leather, while a Kiev uses a synthetic material.
However, it's very possible that the early Kievs used materials identical to Zeiss Ikon.
By the way, it's always tougher to tension the shutter at the slowest speeds. One of the advantages of the Contax IIa is that the rotation and effort required to tension the shutter didn't change regardless of the selected speed.
My own feeling is this: Don't worry about it.
What's better? A faulty Zeiss Ikon shutter or a working Kiev shutter? The answer is always the working shutter, regardless of the manufacturer.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Nope. Both the Kievs and every Contax (probably - I can't speak for every version of the I) allow for changing speeds regardless of tensioning. But neither is reliable when changing the slow speeds untensioned - you can do so without damaging the camera, but the safeguard that enforces that the escapement is aligned with the speed set on the knob may slip if the tension is low, in which case you end up with a wrong, arbitrary speed.
In any case, stop worrying - the Kiev and the pre-war Contax are pretty much the same camera. A well-made Kiev (and their QC only slipped gradually) or well-restored Kiev is no worse than a Contax.
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Highway 61
Revisited
Width and length yes, thickness no. Hence the Arsenal (Kiev) ribbons ("tapes") won't fit in an original Zeiss Ikon shutter, because they are thicker than the required ribbons, and the shutter will bounce. There are ways to get around this problem (carefully filing the tiny lower curtain clips the ribbons go through, or replacing the only first blade of the lower curtain by a Kiev one) but this is a bitch of a precision job and given what Oleg asks for and his turnover delays I'd bet he doesn't do this.
But there are other sources of ribbons that fit the original shutter very well : cheap acetate woven ribbon from craft stores, or black silk ribbons from Aki Asahi. But Oleg musn't be using this and that - he's probably got great lengths of Arsenal ribbons in stock.
Many good writings all around about this - and yes, a lot of B.S. spouted in as well.
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
Ah. That Kiev Shutter ribbon again. Mr S is indeed saying a lot of BS, when he said that no Kiev and Contax should mix (they can, and can end with very happy results), and that he is the only one in the world with the suitable ribbons. And that this, and only this can work in, and can make, the Contax shutter work properly.
He says that he got them from Japan. And he's not selling any of his silk straps. I ordered 3mm black silk tapes from Aki-Asahi. Silk and Japanese too, so they may just be the same. Works fine in the Kiev (and perhaps the Contax). The only thing that needs to be done is to crimp the lower shutter blind's eyelets a bit so that they can grip the silk tapes firmly, instead of just sliding down freely. (Thanks to Highway for this tip!) This metal gripping on fabric is what will wear the straps eventually.
All of my Kiev and Contax/Kiev-2 hybrid (very nice, and can pass off as a real Contax II anytime) use the Aki-Asahi ribbons now. Too bad Aki-Asahi isn't selling overseas now.
He says that he got them from Japan. And he's not selling any of his silk straps. I ordered 3mm black silk tapes from Aki-Asahi. Silk and Japanese too, so they may just be the same. Works fine in the Kiev (and perhaps the Contax). The only thing that needs to be done is to crimp the lower shutter blind's eyelets a bit so that they can grip the silk tapes firmly, instead of just sliding down freely. (Thanks to Highway for this tip!) This metal gripping on fabric is what will wear the straps eventually.
All of my Kiev and Contax/Kiev-2 hybrid (very nice, and can pass off as a real Contax II anytime) use the Aki-Asahi ribbons now. Too bad Aki-Asahi isn't selling overseas now.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Everyone, thanks very much. This is exactly why I posted here -- lots of informed advice! And I always figured the instructions to not change Kiev shutter speeds unless the shutter was tensioned was a "fail to do so at your peril" thing.
Based on Mike's description of the shutter catch I assume this is a Kiev shutter -- it looks thin (don't have a Contax one to compare with) and about 3mm wide. Also, Highway 61 and ZorkiKat's comments that 1) the Arsenal ribbons don't fit the Contax shutter, 2) this shutter doesn't bounce, and 3) Oleg no doubt is using Arsenal ribbons, strongly buttress the conclusion. But as you all recommend, I'm not going to sweat it.
Based on Mike's description of the shutter catch I assume this is a Kiev shutter -- it looks thin (don't have a Contax one to compare with) and about 3mm wide. Also, Highway 61 and ZorkiKat's comments that 1) the Arsenal ribbons don't fit the Contax shutter, 2) this shutter doesn't bounce, and 3) Oleg no doubt is using Arsenal ribbons, strongly buttress the conclusion. But as you all recommend, I'm not going to sweat it.
Highway 61
Revisited
The Contax III is a common (I mean, not rare) camera and its collectable value has decreased a lot now. So, rather having one that works.
Having a good Kiev shutter in it may even be a good thing, if you think not of the casual ribbons but of the tiny leather cords that connect the folded ends of the shutter curtains blades. Those cords are critical for a regular run of the curtains when you fire the shutter, and within most of original Zeiss shutters, they are shot.
Having a good Kiev shutter in it may even be a good thing, if you think not of the casual ribbons but of the tiny leather cords that connect the folded ends of the shutter curtains blades. Those cords are critical for a regular run of the curtains when you fire the shutter, and within most of original Zeiss shutters, they are shot.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I take it the Kiev shutter doesn't use the leather cords? Seems as though ZI used a lot of parts made of materials that simply have not held up over the decades, and the complicated design makes this even more problematic.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I guess you are yourself in better condition than the original owner of your III, aren't you ?
Haha! I guess so.
Haha! I guess so.
Grytpype
Well-known
Is this temporary or permanent? I can't see anything on his web-site that says he won't ship overseas.
Steve.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
He moved shop in late Summer, posted "inaccessible" notices to his website for a while and omitted to reopen the English language version so far, even though the Japanese one seems to be up again. I doubt that means he won't ship overseas, but it makes it near impossible to place orders if you neither speak Japanese nor are a former customer...
Sevo
Grytpype
Well-known
Thanks, Sevo. Panic over! I was planning to order some tapes and shutter-curtain, but it's not urgent so I will wait till he's up and running again.
Steve.
Steve.