jlamarca
jlamarca
I know these lenses have been discussed ad naseum, but I just did some test shots with these two lenses (sorry, no scanner so I can't post them). The CV 40/1.4 looks a little sharper at 1.4 than the Biogon 25 2.8 does at 5.6. They are both supposed to be pretty sharp lenses, so I would think that stopping down the Biogon would make it at least equal to the CV wide open. Any chance the lens is out of alignment? I just bought the Biogon lens new. I'm using the ZI body with both.
Another observation, for the curious: I'm using a Zeiss Ikon body, and the 25mm lens captures a fair bit more than the whole viewfinder, particularly on the sides (in fact, the 28 framelines on the ZI, particularly the sides, are almost out to the edge of the finder anyway). I read in a couple of places that the whole finder of a .72 magnifier would approximate 25mm angle, but it's not quite there. Still, I think I'll live with it- I really hate my external CV 25mm finder.
Another observation: the 35mm framelines on the ZI are much closer to the angle of the 40mm CV lens than the 50mm lines, which it brings up (I'm going to do some grinding).
Another observation, for the curious: I'm using a Zeiss Ikon body, and the 25mm lens captures a fair bit more than the whole viewfinder, particularly on the sides (in fact, the 28 framelines on the ZI, particularly the sides, are almost out to the edge of the finder anyway). I read in a couple of places that the whole finder of a .72 magnifier would approximate 25mm angle, but it's not quite there. Still, I think I'll live with it- I really hate my external CV 25mm finder.
Another observation: the 35mm framelines on the ZI are much closer to the angle of the 40mm CV lens than the 50mm lines, which it brings up (I'm going to do some grinding).
Justin Viiret
Established
The Biogon is very sharp -- Zeiss have some impressive claims for resolution on the lens, and it should definitely be excellent at f5.6. You should have large depth of field at f5.6, too, so it's not likely to be a minor misalignment of the focus.
How are you comparing the two lenses? Tripod, same subject, same film, same EV?
How are you comparing the two lenses? Tripod, same subject, same film, same EV?
Terao
Kiloran
Is this centre or corner sharpness?
Biogon formula is sharp across the frame whereas the Nokton is centre sharp and less so in the corners. If you're looking just at centre sharpness you may find that the Nokton is sharper.
FWIW I own both and subjectively I find the Biogon to be sharper but then the Nokton is often shot wide open.
Biogon formula is sharp across the frame whereas the Nokton is centre sharp and less so in the corners. If you're looking just at centre sharpness you may find that the Nokton is sharper.
FWIW I own both and subjectively I find the Biogon to be sharper but then the Nokton is often shot wide open.
mfogiel
Veteran
jlamarca,
I don't use the Nokton 40, but I do use the Nokton 35 - a fine lens, but unable to produce a higher resolution at any aperture, than the Biogon 25 is capable of. If you want to see the real resolution of the Biogon, shoot it at infinity and f4.0 - I believe it actually deteriorates at f5.6 already- on a film like Delta 100 on a tripod or at 1/2000th of a second, and then see what you get.
I don't use the Nokton 40, but I do use the Nokton 35 - a fine lens, but unable to produce a higher resolution at any aperture, than the Biogon 25 is capable of. If you want to see the real resolution of the Biogon, shoot it at infinity and f4.0 - I believe it actually deteriorates at f5.6 already- on a film like Delta 100 on a tripod or at 1/2000th of a second, and then see what you get.
Cron
Well-known
as I saw in pictures, the Biogon is far the better lens! not so contrasty, flare resistant, really sharp and wonderful colours on slide film
Olsen
Well-known
We would very much like to see these test results.
The Carl Zeiss Biogon ZM 25 mm 2,8 is one of the sharpest and most contrast rich lenses for the M-system. - It is one of the sharpest lenses for just any for the 135-system. - The Biogon is a very old design stemming from top secret WWII airborn recognosance photography. One of the old 'classic' lense design that Carl Zeiss has improved over the years. I have both the ZM 25 mm 2,8 - and the MF-variant; the Hasselblad SWC 905 - Biogon 38 mm 4,5 - The World's Best Camera, to my view. The Biogon design does not only offer very high resolution and high level of contrast, it draws streight lines. All properties important in airborn reccognosance where ships should be identified from 30.000 ft by detailed meassurements. It gives the modern pro photographer a outstanding tool for photographing architecture.
The CV 40 mm 1,4 Nocton is the only lense for the M-system that really gets mediocre test results from major 'testers' on the Net when testing resolution and contrast. Still it is 'the fastest 40 mm lense' for the 135 system. Which seems to be Voigtländer/Cosina's ambition. Fast lenses with a narrow DOF have their purpose too. Like when you want the object to stand out from the background - like on portraits. 40 mm seems a short focal length for classical portraits, so, the Nocton offers something 'different'.
The Carl Zeiss Biogon ZM 25 mm 2,8 is one of the sharpest and most contrast rich lenses for the M-system. - It is one of the sharpest lenses for just any for the 135-system. - The Biogon is a very old design stemming from top secret WWII airborn recognosance photography. One of the old 'classic' lense design that Carl Zeiss has improved over the years. I have both the ZM 25 mm 2,8 - and the MF-variant; the Hasselblad SWC 905 - Biogon 38 mm 4,5 - The World's Best Camera, to my view. The Biogon design does not only offer very high resolution and high level of contrast, it draws streight lines. All properties important in airborn reccognosance where ships should be identified from 30.000 ft by detailed meassurements. It gives the modern pro photographer a outstanding tool for photographing architecture.
The CV 40 mm 1,4 Nocton is the only lense for the M-system that really gets mediocre test results from major 'testers' on the Net when testing resolution and contrast. Still it is 'the fastest 40 mm lense' for the 135 system. Which seems to be Voigtländer/Cosina's ambition. Fast lenses with a narrow DOF have their purpose too. Like when you want the object to stand out from the background - like on portraits. 40 mm seems a short focal length for classical portraits, so, the Nocton offers something 'different'.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Olsen,Olsen said:
Nah... cheap and nasty. Buy the Alpa version.
Seriously, Zeiss's own research suggested that hand held, the Alpa/Biogon combination offers more sharpness as a result of less camera shake (easier to hold the Alpa steady, and a smoother shutter release).
Also, I much prefer the 66x44 format -- though I keep thinking about getting Alpa to cut me an A4-format mask.
Cheers,
R.
Olsen
Well-known
Roger Hicks said:
Roger,
That could well be true. The SWC is a bit difficult to hold and the release button is a bit hard. The very elegant Alpa is a very elegant camera, but the Hasselblad is a cheaper alternative w/Biogon. Alpa has released a 'compact' model without these very elegant and practical handles, which I have had the honnor of holding (at Cathay Photo, Singapore) . That one was about as difficult to hold as the SWC. But the 'classic' Alpa WA is indeed One of The World's Most Elegant Cameras.
Link here: http://www.alpa.ch/index.php
thomasw_
Well-known
mfogiel said:
Instead of Delta 100, try the ZM 25 with Adox CMS 20. Hard to believe the resolving is on 35 mm film! I have the ZM 25 and have used the CV 40; your findings are different from mine.
kevin m
Veteran
Really? Who? I have read nothing of the sort, and my own use shows it not to be true. Some people don't like the "bokeh," which is subjective, but the resolution and contrast are fine. The lens is also nearly free from CA, too.
This is the sort of internet "conventional wisdom" that made the version IV 35 Summicron a $1,500 lens, but in reverse.
The attached pic is a 1/3 frame crop shot at f1.7, 1/15th, Fuji NPZ with the SC Nokton.
Attachments
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Quercus
Quercus
The 4,5/53 biogon is possibly one of the greatest LF lenses ever designed. It produces exceptionally high res, very even illumination, and next to no distortion. Its only draw back is that it has a tight image circle - but when used with a 6x12 back it is a wonderful panoramic lens
Just such a pity that it isnt available for the alpa - I think then I would finally retire my MPP - it is the only reason I now still lug the big black box around.
Just such a pity that it isnt available for the alpa - I think then I would finally retire my MPP - it is the only reason I now still lug the big black box around.
chuber
Newbie
Isn't the 40 Nokton known for harsh bokeh ?
Regards
Regards
kross
sonnarism
i think it's a little harsh wide open.....chuber said:
cv nokton 40mm f/1.4 sc
Olsen
Well-known
kevin m said:
This guy, for instance. His 'conclusion' is a long list of 'better alternatives': http://www.reidreviews.com
That does not mean that I think that the Nocton 40 mm 1,4 is a 'bad' lense. But it is irrelevant to compare it to a ZM 25 mm 2,8. That the Nocton beats the 50 mm 1,0 Noctilux should not suprise me a minute. - At least, that is a more relevant comparison.
kevin m
Veteran
His long list of "better alternatives" were for the M8 because it doesn't have a framelline match for a 40mm lens. His only real complaint was about the "bokeh" which is subjective.
The only thing wrong with the site, actually, is that it's so M8-o-centric. He tends to pick lens favorites based on whether or not they can be "coded" or how much they vignette on the M8.
LeicaM3
Well-known
kevin m said:
Agree.
Would be great if Sean could concentrate a bit less on the coding and more on the lens.
Nevertheless, one of my resources.
Hacker
黑客
I could not live with this type of bokeh. However, I've seen some very nice bokeh also from this lens.
kross said:i think it's a little harsh wide open.....
cv nokton 40mm f/1.4 sc
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Hacker said:
Exactly why I sold mine (plus I don't like tabs).
The photo by Kevin M shows one way to use it: avoid bokeh!
I got the Biogon 25, and it far surpasses my abilities as a photographer.
mr_phillip
Well-known
chuber said:
The bokeh is quite nasty wide open, but I've found that from f2 onwards improves hugely – it really does get pretty sweet. I'll post some shots once I get 'round to scanning them.
mr_phillip
Well-known
In the meantime check out these test shots from ferider: CV40mm vs Summicron and Rokkor 40s