"Demand for film cameras is greater than the production capacity" - Leica

[Phil_F_NM]

I hate those Ridicoulously priced film cameras. Just today I saw a beater Eos 5D for 99 Euros! Stupid Mju 1s go for 150 these days. I think I‘ll go fully digital, out of protest 😀

Yeah, on goodwill's auction site, recently a Nikon D1x went for less than $40, while the Nikon L35AF recently has sold repeatedly for over $90.
As for the staying power of Instax, there are no less than 29 Instax cameras on goodwill right now, most of them not selling at all. We can't keep filling the world with garbage, as our disposable culture is doing. We don't need new cameras, we need old ones repaired, there are plenty of them.
Phil Forrest

 

[Mudman]

I'm under 35. I bought my first Leica M when I was 24. Granted it was $500 vs $1200 for an M3 at the time, but it was also during the recession and I was paying my bills with my photography. I got my first digital M (the M8) for $2k or so in 2011, sent it back over issues and replaced it for $1800 in 2013 with another M8. None of these prices made me blink, they were on par with getting a nikon d300, d700 etc. I stepped up to the M240 in 2016 for $3200. I haven't wanted another digital since, besides a d750 that I used for PJ work for a couple of years. The d750 is thrashed, I barely use it anymore because it's falling apart. My M240 is a bit more brassed, but hasn't skipped a beat in 4 years. And I could sell it within $6 or 700 of what I paid for it! Can't say that for the d750.

I love the images, the quality, the ROI and the feel of leica. I pay my bills with it daily, or did so before Covid. I still use it regularly and still use it for work. I've been shooting film since I was a kid, why shouldn't I want to use some of the best cameras ever made? The most I've ever paid for a film leica was $1200 (m6 ttl .85) which I made money on owning it for 5 years. Wish I still had it.

 

[Spluff]

Out of curiosity, has anyone "printed" an M Mount Camera? If that is possible we could all band together and get a batch made by a Chinese Manufacturer 🙂

 

[splitimageview]

Olympus has failed in the digital camera market. Their days are numbered. In 9 years (!) of the last decade they made losses with their M4/3 cameras.
The recently published intention of sale of the camera production is just the first step in a "fading out process" in the coming years.
Olympus camera production will be a part of history in some years. That's just the reality.

New film cameras will be based on 35mm DSLRs: You can use a "same parts strategy":
- same prism
- same mirror mechanics
- same AF system
- fine tuned exposure system
- same shutter release
- some other identical parts as knobs or the AF focus selector.
By using this strategy costs can be significantly reduced. Both for the film based and digital model. And at the same time the customers get the most sophisticated and current technology.
That this strategy works was already demonstrated by Nikon with the F6, which was developed simultanously and shared some parts / technology with the D2X and D2h.

Cheers, Jan

Sure, Nikon for example used SLRs as a base for several digitals, like the F80/N80 and the D100.

But this was back in the transition period from film to digital.

Today, it would be the reverse, but that would limit offerings to companies still making DSLRs - Nikon and Canon. Both of whom are moving quickly to mirrorless...

However the demand would still be minimal, even sharing parts won’t make this a profitable exercise.

 

[Archlich]

The Summarit line is not discontinued. Just look at the Leica homepage, all Summarit lenses are listed there in the current M lens programe.

Cheers, Jan

But are listed as discontinued almost everywhere else.

It had been known so as the "rumor" were first confirmed by dealers, then LHSA back in March:

https://lhsa.org/2020/03/phase-out-of-select-leica-m-lenses-accessories/

 

[HHPhoto]

Today, it would be the reverse, but that would limit offerings to companies still making DSLRs - Nikon and Canon. Both of whom are moving quickly to mirrorless...

It would be possible not only for Nikon (which have already been doing it) and Canon, but also for Pentax, Hasselblad, PhaseOne.
Concerning mirrorless:
Both Nikon and Canon are producing much more DSLRs than mirrorless. DSLRs will stay in the long term.
Nikon has already made several public statements that they will offer "best of both worlds" (original quotation). Canon has introduced three new DSLRs in tha last 9 months, Nikon two.

However the demand would still be minimal, even sharing parts won’t make this a profitable exercise.

People have said the same about demand of vinyl records and instant cameras ten years ago. And exactly the opposite has happened.
Nikon made much less D2H than F6, nevertheless it was profitable for them.
The same will be the case for a future F7, which shares technology with the D6 or 7.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

But are listed as discontinued almost everywhere else.

It had been known so as the "rumor" were first confirmed by dealers, then LHSA back in March.

I don't care for rumors. Too much BS is often written.
The current facts are:
1. There has not been so far an official statement by Leica that this lens line is discontinued.
2. The lenses are listed on Leica's homepage and are available in their stores.
I prefer waiting for real, official news by the manufacturer themselves.

Cheers, Jan

 

[raid]

I have a feeling that most people around us find prints from film more appealing than prints from digital. Some then look for film cameras. The vast majority does not. I kept my film cameras and my digital cameras. I hope that film will remain with us.

 

[ChrisPlatt]

I don't think increased film sales will spur manufacture of new film cameras, none at consumer prices anyway.
That said I'd love to see a reasonably priced hybrid MILC i.e with digital viewfinder, using film to record image.

Chris

 

[Phil_F_NM]

I prefer waiting for real, official news by the manufacturer themselve.

So then why is there so much conjecture in this thread about the possibility of new film bodies? It's happening or it's not happening, and from the looks of it, especially in the new era of COVID-19, it's most likely not happening. Many people are worried now about things with a little priority on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. Lots of film cameras out there needing to be repaired and used. At least one for every person on the planet. The manufacturers know this and can't compete with their now-out-of-production cameras.
Phil Forrest

 

[splitimageview]

People like you have said the same about demand of vinyl records and instant cameras ten years ago. And exactly the opposite has happened.
Nikon made much less D2H than F6, nevertheless it was profitable for them.
The same will be the case for a future F7, which shares technology with the D6 or 7.

Don’t know anything about those markets...

I like your enthusiasm but until there is independent hard data available, not just anecdotes, it’s all guesswork. How can any random individual possibly know how many units of any given model any manufacturer has produced and what the profitability of each model is? That’s proprietary and known only internally by a few...

Maybe a camera manufacturer will choose to jump in and remake a film model at some point in the future, but if demand were that strong, companies like Cosina (who have a track record of taking flyers on niche products) would already have resumed production of at least one or two of their discontinued film cams.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Many people are worried now about things with a little priority on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. Lots of film cameras out there needing to be repaired and used. At least one for every person on the planet. The manufacturers know this and can't compete with their now-out-of-production cameras.
Phil Forrest

& Lots of working cameras sitting in boxes or on shelves too.....

 

[Archlich]

I don't care for rumors. Too much BS is often written.
The current facts are:
1. There has not been so far an official statement by Leica that this lens line is discontinued.
2. The lenses are listed on Leica's homepage and are available in their stores.
I prefer waiting for real, official news by the manufacturer themselve.

Cheers, Jan

The lenses are no longer listed on Leica USA store's site and are listed as either discontinued (B&H, Adorama) or out of stock (Leica Store Miami, Leica Store Soho - it's not like they have much in stock at all though). They're no longer in Tamarkin's "list of Leica M lenses currently in production" either. Only Leica Store SF shows the 75 and 90 as for sale and the 50 as back ordered. The 35 is not listed.

What to make of these, to each his/her own. I understand your point but note that it looks like Leica had never discontinued any lenses with clear public statement in the past decade. When something is gone it usually just disappears.

 

[HHPhoto]

Lots of film cameras out there needing to be repaired and used. At least one for every person on the planet. The manufacturers know this and can't compete with their now-out-of-production cameras.
Phil Forrest

At least one film camera for every person on the planet?
Sorry, but that is total nonsense. That would be 7 billion film cameras.
There have never been so much film cameras produced. I have some camera literature with production numbers here. And CIPA has pusblished their film camera production data online, readable for eyeryone.
The total number of all film produced cameras ever in history may approach one billion, but definitely not much more. And the vast majority of these cameras are not existing anymore.

We are seeing lots of film camera models meanwhile surpassing their former new prices (Hasselblad XPan and its Fuji sibling, Mamiya 6 and 7II, Voigtländer Bessa III, Fuji GF670, Pentax 67 II, Zeiss Ikon ZM, Plaubel Makina 67, Contax 645, Contax T2 and T3, Olympus Mju II, Yashica T4 and T5....just to name a few, there are much more). And lots of models where used prices are increasing and coming meanwhile close to former new prices.
So we have demand surpassing supply. And in these areas a new production could be attractive. Because there is no competition with extremely cheap used cameras.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Don’t know anything about those markets...

I like your enthusiasm but until there is independent hard data available, not just anecdotes, it’s all guesswork. How can any random individual possibly know how many units of any given model any manufacturer has produced and what the profitability of each model is? That’s proprietary and known only internally by a few...

Lots of production data has been published. I have several camera books with such data. And in Germany there is also a camera print magazine which is completely focusing on camera history, and in it for decades now production numbers have been published.

The organisation of the Japanese camera manufacturers - CIPA - has also published all their camera production numbers of more than the last 40 years. It is publicly available, just look at their homepage.

Concerning the Nikon D2H and F6 numbers: The D2H number was published on a Nikon specialist forum some years ago.
And the F6 numbers are readily available as this model has a simple, ongoing serial number. We have a whole thread about it with the latest numbers here on RFF. The data is right in front of you.....😉. There is also permanent fresh data of it on the F6 facebook group. And Nikon has even published the latest produced numbers (which have been shipped to Europe) in an official statement some months ago concerning a topic with new EU regulations. So far more than 36.136 F6 have been produced.
So the data is all out there and accessible to those who are interested.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Guth]

Just some days ago there was the news that in the US the sales revenue of vinyl records has surpassed (!) the revenue of compact discs (CD).

Yes, it's true. Perhaps more pertinent to this conversation is that one would now have a much harder time finding a new CD player these days than they would finding new turntable. Along with the newfound interest in listening to vinyl LP's came an incredible demand for new turntables and other associated equipment. This despite the fact that there are still plenty of serviceable used turntables around which many people do enjoy, many of which are quite desirable.

These days entry level turntables with cartridge can be found for as little as $100, but $500 is not out of the question. The next tier up typically involves turntables costing $1,000 or more that do not come with a cartridge. A decent mid-range turntable these days will set a person back at least $1,500. There are plenty of turntables costing more than $2,000 for the devout audiophiles out there. The cartridge expenditure is what can really add up. While they can be found for less than $50, someone buying a midrange turntable is likely to spend somewhere in the range of $500 - $1,500 for a cartridge while the high-end audiophile can easily spend more then $2K. There are a mind-boggling (to me anyway) number of cartridges available in the five-figure range. Bear in mind that cartridges are wear-items that have to be replaced / re-tipped after so many hours of use. None of this takes into account that the majority of audio systems sold these day require require a separate phono preamplifier. These can range anywhere from less than $100 to five-figures.

Obviously the logistics of manufacturing turntables, phono cartridges and phono preamplifiers is quite a bit different than those involved in manufacturing film cameras. But the point I'm attempting to make here is that there are a lot of people in this world willing to spend a small fortune on their music playback via a format that many would argue is still bettered by digital (although vinyl enthusiasts will howl at this). That's quite a bit of money being spent to play music via a format that was once thought to be dead. At the center of it all from my perspective is the experience that vinyl playback provides as listening to LP's via a turntable entails much more effort and involvement on the part of the user. So it goes with film photography and the use of film cameras. It will be interesting to see just how long it takes until a new film camera is released by someone other than Leica, if it does happen that is.

 

[splitimageview]

If you can chart this growth with independent industry numbers to back up your claims, that would be helpful. You keep claiming all this data is here for the taking, but this is your argument, so it’s up to you to provide the info; you’d have more success in convincing your audience if you had real footnoted data, and not just claims of “it’s out there, go find it yourself.”

🙂

 

[HHPhoto]

If you can chart this growth with independent industry numbers to back up your claims, that would be helpful. You keep claiming all this data is here for the taking, but this is your argument, so it’s up to you to provide the info; you’d have more success in convincing your audience if you had real footnoted data, and not just claims of “it’s out there, go find it yourself.”

🙂

I've given the names of the sources. ......

- I've given the CIPA source:

http://cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
http://cipa.jp/stats/documents/common/cr400.pdf

- Info directly from Kodak that their sales of photo film has doubled in the last five years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YotUW5WcOh8
It's from 6:50 min. on

- Ilford as a public company is obliged to publish their sales data on the UK companies webpage. So you can download all sales data of the last years there.

- It is forbidden here on rff to give links to other photo forums. But there is one major international film photography forum where you can all find the data, mostly in the "Industry News" subforum there: You get info there directly from film manufacturers, big film distributors, independent market analysts, lab owners and so on. There also the Ilford data has always been published. And yesterday Europe's biggest film distributor has explained there that their business has increased by a factor of 3x in the last years.

- The numbers of film photography Youtube channels have exploded in the last years. More than 100 (!) in the meanwhile. With permanent increasing number of subscribers. Only possible because of strong increasing demand.

- The number of photos made on film on instagram, reddit and facebook have exploded in the last years. Same is true for the number of film photographers on these channels and the number of subscribers of the film manufacturers on instagram. Several thousand new subscribers every month. Total number already reaching the two million mark.

- Even the biggest digital photography online magazine and forum (which has been for years the center of the film-is-dead ideology) has recently introduced
- a subforum for film photography
- a weekly article about film photography.
So even the former die-hard digital fans are reacting to the film resurgence.

Yes, it is all out there and easily visible for those who want to get information.

Cheers, Jan

 

[kshapero]

Absolutely. Some person who had way more money than brains recently bought a Nikon L35AF, untested, for over $110 USD. I can barely give away cameras like this and people are buying point and shoots from Goodwill for over $100 regularly. Not Contax T2/3, but Nikons and Olympuses. So I guess I answered my own question. There are plenty of people out there willing to pay too much for so little. Crazy times.
Phil Forrest

Bought a Nikon FE used in '84, been working ever since.

OK I am obsessive in keeping it shiny clean.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Same argument, every time. Same, same, same. The way it has been argued for over a year. No need to go over the same tired stuff we've all heard. Simultaneously, many of us haven't seen this resurgence where we live, instead, only the continued shrinking of the industry, in spite of all this "proof" to the contrary. Don't tell me there is a resurgence in the film industry, when locally, in the 5th largest city in the USA, we only see continued rapid contraction. And in this city with several big schools that have prominent still, motion picture, and fine art film programs, there is still no resurgence to speak of.
Phil Forrest