xwhatsit
Well-known
After seeing the bright blue dye that came out of the tank the first time I developed Efke KB25, I now prewash every film the first time I try it 
Roger Hicks
Veteran
After seeing the bright blue dye that came out of the tank the first time I developed Efke KB25, I now prewash every film the first time I try it
Fair enough, though as I understand it, that the vividness of a dye is no particular guide as to whether a pre-wash is advisable to remove it. The only company I know that recommends pre-washes, and then only for some of its products, is Maco -- and I don't always have that much faith in instructions emanating from a company that regularly fails to distinguish between EI and ISO in their development recommendations. The products they sell are usually very good, but they tend to make rather exaggerated claims for them and to be idiosyncratic in their processing recommendations.
Cheers,
R.
david.elliott
Well-known
So please help me out a bit here Roger...
If I want to stand develop in rodinal 1:100, there is no need for me to prewash? Leaving out the initial water bath will change nothing?
If I want to stand develop in rodinal 1:100, there is no need for me to prewash? Leaving out the initial water bath will change nothing?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
It may change the dev time somewhat, but otherwise, I don't think there's any advantage at all. This doesn't mean you will see no difference: just that all the sensitometry points to the unlikelihood of seeing any. And of course lots of people see what they wat to see.
Cheers,
R.
david.elliott
Well-known
Thanks Roger. When I have the time, I'll fire off a test roll and see what happens. My guess is with the long development times for stand development, I might not see any difference.
filmfan
Well-known
I have recently stopped pre-washing as well...
newspaperguy
Well-known
IMO - Sometimes dust may be causing the spots that are blamed on air bubbles... that being said, I use short development times (HC110) and always prewash.
I still have batch of un-even (top-t-bottom) 120 negs that I failed to
evenly wet before I poured the developer in. Just my .02
I still have batch of un-even (top-t-bottom) 120 negs that I failed to
evenly wet before I poured the developer in. Just my .02
Roger Hicks
Veteran
One thing I should add is that if pre-washes work for you, they work for you. All I'm trying to counter is the evangelistic spirit of those who try to maintain that pre-washes are a secret that the manufacturers are withholding out of spite. Pre-washing is like religion. If you think it's good for you, it may be, but that's no excuse for maintaining that you and your brethren alone are privy to the secrets of the universe. Well, not unless you use a different meaning of the word 'privy'.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Finder
Veteran
The only reason to pre-wash your film is to keep your camera clean.
I can only think of two reasons for a pre-wash. Your process has a clear air-bell problem or you are getting uneven development during submersion. The first is rare, but I have seen it. The second is one where I cannot think a process or material big enough where it would be an issue--this is a case of possibility vs. probability. As far as any advantage to image quality, there is none.
This reminds me of a story of a student I had who had found the "secret" to reducing granularity in his negatives. Simply mix a little stop bath in with the developer. It works, but...
I can only think of two reasons for a pre-wash. Your process has a clear air-bell problem or you are getting uneven development during submersion. The first is rare, but I have seen it. The second is one where I cannot think a process or material big enough where it would be an issue--this is a case of possibility vs. probability. As far as any advantage to image quality, there is none.
This reminds me of a story of a student I had who had found the "secret" to reducing granularity in his negatives. Simply mix a little stop bath in with the developer. It works, but...
Matus
Well-known
I use 4 minute pre-wash (clear water of course). However only when I develop with Pyrocat HD (1:1:100). Especially with modern films like Delta or Tmax it washes away a lot of dye (the water comes out dark blue/magenta). Truth to be told I have read somewhere at APUG or LFF when I started with Pyrocat HD (about 3 years ago - still using the same bottles I bought back then !) - might have been Sandy King. I have also never tried to skip it.
2WK
Rangefinder User
After recently hearing from a master developer, who handled Helmut Newton and Juergen Teller's negs, say you must pre-wash....I now pre-wash. Seeing all the crap that comes off the negs before you get started doesn't really bother me. Plus, it didn't seem like pre-washing did Helmut Newton any harm....
lam
Well-known
Yes I always pre-wash, generally fill it once while i'm getting setup let it sit for a bit, then dump it out and see all the colors..then refill maybe 2-3 times more before putting actual developer in.
vitaly66
slightly tilted
+1 for presoak, two minutes in distilled water first brought to development temp. Primarily for tempering purposes as I work in extreme environments and want to mitigate the effects of seaonal temperature variability, especially important during the development stage of processing.
Using PMK pyro, TF-4 fixer, many B&W films in 120 (HP5, Neopan, Fomapan, etc.)
Using PMK pyro, TF-4 fixer, many B&W films in 120 (HP5, Neopan, Fomapan, etc.)
crispy12
Well-known
What is the blue dye that comes out from the wash? I washed some Tmax 120 as well as Shanghai GP and both came out blue. Another time I skipped the wash and the developer came out as normal, seems like the reaction removed all the blue. No difference in negs anyway.
robklurfield
eclipse
The "dye" is actually the anti-halation layer.
FrankS
Registered User
During my first 10 years of developing film, I used to pre wash. During these last 20 years of developing film, I do not. But I've used only a limited number of common black and white film types.
BobYIL
Well-known
Way back in the 60's we used to pre wash some films as a principle: LF against dust and the Adox KB-14 for the blue anti halation layer.. Other than these two and with any Ilford or Kodak 35mm or MF films never needed pre wash.
Teuthida
Well-known
Only when I develop ACROS films and am using a re-usable developer. The ACROS films have a very strong anti-halation dye that turns yo ur developer purple.
DougFord
on the good foot
no, I don't 'pre-wash' my film. I use the usual suspects in 35mm - triX, apx100, neopan 400.
loquax ludens
Well-known
I presoak my films, regardless of format, emulsion, type, or manufacturer recommendation. It's just part of my standardized film-processing regimem, but not a matter of religion. It's a carry-over from sheet film processing where I find it essential to presoak the negatives to make them easier to handle and to prevent them from sticking together in the developer. In the case of rollfilms, I consider it a tempering step to ensure that films and equipment are all at the same temperature, as well as a cleaning step that may eliminate some dust particles.
I have to admit that I find it satisfying to see the lovely deep blue anti-halation dye-tinted water that comes off of some films. I wish they all had that.
As Roger said earlier in the thread, presoaking is a time-tested harmless technique. That doesn't turn it into a recommendation, but it does mean I can enjoy it as part of my regimen without worry.
I have to admit that I find it satisfying to see the lovely deep blue anti-halation dye-tinted water that comes off of some films.
I wish they all had that. As Roger said earlier in the thread, presoaking is a time-tested harmless technique. That doesn't turn it into a recommendation, but it does mean I can enjoy it as part of my regimen without worry.