PatrickCheung
Well-known
I bought a iic off someone not too long ago, ran a test roll through it and found a few... splotches all over the negatives. I don't know if it was a developing error... of it the curtains have holes in them. Some of the photos are pretty bad, the others are pretty clean. Most of them are clean though.
Damaged Frames...
Really Damaged Frames...
Clean Frames...
Is it a hole-riddled curtain, or is it just developing error?
Damaged Frames...
Really Damaged Frames...
Clean Frames...
Is it a hole-riddled curtain, or is it just developing error?
Lflex
Lflex
Looks like holes. Some patterns are the same from image to image.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
Looks like pinholes to me too. Some pinholes only become noticeable when you leave the lens cape off for a period of time, faster in bright locations.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Yup, looks like holes. But you don't see them on all shots. They still must be very small, maybe the curtain has only just started to crackle.
Two appoaches: wind on right before you take the shot, leave the lens cap on until the last moment, or re-cover the curtain with liquid wire insulator, a kind of fluid rubber used by electricians. Another member in the US could likely supply you with details, I've never seen the stuff here.
Or be done with it and send it to Youxin Ye, for new curtains and a CLA?!
Two appoaches: wind on right before you take the shot, leave the lens cap on until the last moment, or re-cover the curtain with liquid wire insulator, a kind of fluid rubber used by electricians. Another member in the US could likely supply you with details, I've never seen the stuff here.
Or be done with it and send it to Youxin Ye, for new curtains and a CLA?!
PatrickCheung
Well-known
Ahh. That's depressing. Keh.com never sent me a lenscap with my 50/1.8. I'm guessing that the price of a curtain replacement could be well above the price of the camera itself, in which case it would probably be best for me to get a refund...
Nomad Z
Well-known
I think it's better to consider what it generally costs to get a camera that has good curtains and doesn't need a CLA, and then compare that against what you paid plus the cost of curtain replacement and CLA for the camera you have. To put it another way, a camera that has guaranteed good curtains and a recent CLA is likely to be more desirable and thus cost more anyway. Anything without a recent service is a bit of a gamble, and one has to accept that there is a risk of an additional spend.
Ultimately, it's about making a choice between the hassle factor of trying various cameras and getting refunds until a good one comes along, or buying one that needs a service and just stumping up the additional cost. With my Leicas (a IIIf and an M2), I took the latter approach.
The IIIf cost 250GBP, and it lasted 3 or 4 rolls before the slow speeds went mega slow - a CLA cost 75GBP, and the curtains were okay (would have been 125 or so with curtain replacement as well as CLA). I still had a further issue with the take-up spool, in that it didn't have enough friction and the film wasn't winding on properly. I'm mechanically adept and was able to fix this myself. So, it took a bit of work with the small screwdrivers by me, and a total spend of 325GBP for a serviced IIIf RD/ST in very good to excellent cosmetic condition. The hassles were the time spent waiting for the CLA, and the time I spent fiddling about with it (worthwhile because it was a good learning process, but important to know when to stop - I decided that servicing the shutter was beyond me, and I don't have any speed calibration gear).
The M2 cost 500GBP in excellent to near-mint condition. The only issue it has is a pinhole right at the edge of the curtain. No sign of a light leak on photos, and the service guy had a look at it when I picked the IIIf - he reckoned it wouldn't be an issue in use. It needed a really bright lamp, with the lens off, to see the little dot of light in the curtain. That was a year and a half ago, and it has been absolutely fine - no sign of a leak on any frame, and I make no special effort to keep the lens covered, or keep the shutter wound or unwound. (I do keep the camera pointed towards the ground in sunny weather, and tend to use the lens cap if I'm not using it for a few minutes.) The service guy also reckoned the M2 didn't need a CLA any time soon - the escapement mechansim buzzes for a little longer than it should on 1 second, but timing is fine.
Everybody wants a low-priced camera that has perfect curtains and a CLA, and it's not impossible to get such a thing, but it takes luck and/or time to get one. It's down to how much cash one has to spend, and whether the saving is worth the time and hassle it takes to potentialy have to check out several cameras.
Ultimately, it's about making a choice between the hassle factor of trying various cameras and getting refunds until a good one comes along, or buying one that needs a service and just stumping up the additional cost. With my Leicas (a IIIf and an M2), I took the latter approach.
The IIIf cost 250GBP, and it lasted 3 or 4 rolls before the slow speeds went mega slow - a CLA cost 75GBP, and the curtains were okay (would have been 125 or so with curtain replacement as well as CLA). I still had a further issue with the take-up spool, in that it didn't have enough friction and the film wasn't winding on properly. I'm mechanically adept and was able to fix this myself. So, it took a bit of work with the small screwdrivers by me, and a total spend of 325GBP for a serviced IIIf RD/ST in very good to excellent cosmetic condition. The hassles were the time spent waiting for the CLA, and the time I spent fiddling about with it (worthwhile because it was a good learning process, but important to know when to stop - I decided that servicing the shutter was beyond me, and I don't have any speed calibration gear).
The M2 cost 500GBP in excellent to near-mint condition. The only issue it has is a pinhole right at the edge of the curtain. No sign of a light leak on photos, and the service guy had a look at it when I picked the IIIf - he reckoned it wouldn't be an issue in use. It needed a really bright lamp, with the lens off, to see the little dot of light in the curtain. That was a year and a half ago, and it has been absolutely fine - no sign of a leak on any frame, and I make no special effort to keep the lens covered, or keep the shutter wound or unwound. (I do keep the camera pointed towards the ground in sunny weather, and tend to use the lens cap if I'm not using it for a few minutes.) The service guy also reckoned the M2 didn't need a CLA any time soon - the escapement mechansim buzzes for a little longer than it should on 1 second, but timing is fine.
Everybody wants a low-priced camera that has perfect curtains and a CLA, and it's not impossible to get such a thing, but it takes luck and/or time to get one. It's down to how much cash one has to spend, and whether the saving is worth the time and hassle it takes to potentialy have to check out several cameras.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
If one buys an old or very old camera (even a Leica) either its been serviced buy the seller or you must figure on the service yourself. Its not realistic to expect any machine to work properly with 50 or 60 year old lubricant and curtains of the same age. If it s worth using its worth servicing.
ZeissFan
Veteran
The cost of replacing the curtains is a once-a-generation repair (hopefully). By the time it needs new curtains, you'll be too old to care anymore.
I probably would go ahead and get the curtains replaced. It's not a huge deal although certainly disappointing.
I probably would go ahead and get the curtains replaced. It's not a huge deal although certainly disappointing.
PatrickCheung
Well-known
Yeah, that's the thing... I like the camera, I really do. It just runs so smoothly, easy to focus, all it's really missing from my old canon 7 is the variable framelines (i prefer to use an external finder anyway, i feel as i take more time to compose with a seperate finder), the 1/1000th speed (i find i can do without that as long as i'm using slower films) and a meter (which I dont use much anyway).
What I did was I traded my Canon 7 (I was selling it for $170) and added $100 for the Leica iic. Maybe I'll get a partial refund and use it towards a repair.
Now the issue is... where do I go for such a repair? I live in toronto and I've been recommended David Yau and Kindermann. I think there's also a Stan at international camera? And I was also suggested Youxin Ye... But that would involve shipping to the states.
What I did was I traded my Canon 7 (I was selling it for $170) and added $100 for the Leica iic. Maybe I'll get a partial refund and use it towards a repair.
Now the issue is... where do I go for such a repair? I live in toronto and I've been recommended David Yau and Kindermann. I think there's also a Stan at international camera? And I was also suggested Youxin Ye... But that would involve shipping to the states.
lawnpotter
Well-known
Patrick, where did you buy it?
mooge
Well-known
I'd suggest David Yau on the advice of others- apparently he's Leica-trained and he runs his repair shop out of his house or something so you could probably pop in and chat with him. Kindermann will likely be very good and very expensive. I've also heard Youxin is good and cheap and quick, but apparently, he managed to muck-up repairing my camera twice (for the previous owner).
actually, never mind what I said, I've never sent anything off for repair so I wouldn't know.
good luck!
actually, never mind what I said, I've never sent anything off for repair so I wouldn't know.
good luck!
PatrickCheung
Well-known
lawnpotter: I got it off craigslist, the previous owner and i worked up a two week testing and return period though. He seems loyal to it and willing to stick to his word, so i'm happy :]
Thanks mooge! I'll consider it... just get a few quotes... if I can't afford it, i'll return it.
Thanks mooge! I'll consider it... just get a few quotes... if I can't afford it, i'll return it.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Patrick
David Yau CLA'd a Canon P for me and did a fine job. He was trained for work on Leicas and the Canon P is very similar internally. I would check him out. I had an M4 done at Kindermann and was well satisfied there also.
Bob
David Yau CLA'd a Canon P for me and did a fine job. He was trained for work on Leicas and the Canon P is very similar internally. I would check him out. I had an M4 done at Kindermann and was well satisfied there also.
Bob
lawnpotter
Well-known
Patrick, depending on the arrangement, you may be able to get some money back. Last month , I bought a Leica III from KEH. bargain grade, $199.00. The shutters were off badly. Since they never mentioned off shutter speeds, the guy said I could return it and they will replace it or try to fix it or they could give me $40.00. I took the $40.00 and will get it CLAed locally. If I were you I would try to get back $70.00 or more. If the guy has to take the camera back, he has the Burden of tring to sell it again. Last week I bought a Lieca IIIc. before I paid, I took and developed a roll of film. I knew what I was getting but we had a no return arrangement. Poor guy bought a root canal after I gave him the money.
PatrickCheung
Well-known
Hey Bob, David Yau actually just told me he didn't do Canon Repairs (maybe he doesn't do them anymore... or doesn't like me!) which is why I decided to sell my Canon 7 (misalligned rangefinder... no big issue, just wanted an excuse to try new cameras).
Ahh Lawnpotter, hope the guy had a successful surgery. Yeah, I talked to the guy today, I just ended up switching his iic for his iif. It was just recently CLA'd. The iif cost $325, i paid the difference. It works pretty well. I took a quick test roll, no curtain holes, the speeds seem correct enough (for colour films anyway). One thing I AM worried about is the sound that the shutters make. The shutter is loud. It gives off a quick, loud, kinda high pitched "fwip" sound, increasing in pitch. Certainly louder and different sounding from the iic he had.
Well, if it's a curtain tension problem, it probably won't cost as much to fix than hole-riddled shutters right?
Ahh Lawnpotter, hope the guy had a successful surgery. Yeah, I talked to the guy today, I just ended up switching his iic for his iif. It was just recently CLA'd. The iif cost $325, i paid the difference. It works pretty well. I took a quick test roll, no curtain holes, the speeds seem correct enough (for colour films anyway). One thing I AM worried about is the sound that the shutters make. The shutter is loud. It gives off a quick, loud, kinda high pitched "fwip" sound, increasing in pitch. Certainly louder and different sounding from the iic he had.
Well, if it's a curtain tension problem, it probably won't cost as much to fix than hole-riddled shutters right?
Nomad Z
Well-known
C$325 sounds pretty decent, especially if it's had a CLA. A 'fwip' sound doesn't seem too far off the mark to me - I'm pretty sure my IIIf is similar, maybe with some other mechanical whirrs going on. With only one Barnack to listen to, I can't compare, but it has been said that they don't all sound the same after a CLA (and thus in presumably similar states of tune). In fact, some have said that a camera that hasn't had a service sounds quieter than one that has. I'd be tempted to just use it, and see how things look over the next few rolls. (Well, I'd sit and work the shutter for a good while, with no film in, and no lens fitted, just to get a feel for how consistent it is, or isn't.)
I'd expect curtain retensioning to be cheaper than new curtains for sure - new curtains will entail tensioning, and making and fitting new curtains isn't a 5 minute job (remember that it was 50GBP extra at the service guy that did my IIIf).
I'd expect curtain retensioning to be cheaper than new curtains for sure - new curtains will entail tensioning, and making and fitting new curtains isn't a 5 minute job (remember that it was 50GBP extra at the service guy that did my IIIf).
lawnpotter
Well-known
I have a IIIc, a III and a IIIg. The IIIg (CLAed) sounds very very quiet (maybe close to M quiet) The IIIc almost sounds like an SLR( cant compare as I dont have an SLR now to compare) The III sounds almost as loud as the IIIc. The IIIc didnt bother me until I compared it to my IIIg. Youxin Ye said the IIIG and the IIIf red dial have the new lighter shutter.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Haigh
Gary Haigh
I had the holes in my M4 repaired-I think with some tiny amount of some material like latex??? It was cheap to repair and did the trick.
David Murphy
Veteran
I've used Youxin Ye and DAG camera to do shutter curtains for old bottom loaders with good results. Leicas are among the easiest models to repair of the bottom loaders. By the way, in my experience, about half the bottom loaders I encounter sold by un-knowledgeable sellers need new curtains. The IIc is a great camera and well-worth the cost of a new set of curtains - you will have one beautiful machine afterwards.