Early Russian Lenses, What Features to look for.

[Brambling]

Zenit 3, Telemar 22 (200|5,6), tasma type 17 from 1987 as 16 iso, exposed 2019

Start camera, Jupiter 6 (180/2.8), Tasma Mikrat-Ortho film.

Kiev 88 (It's like Hassel))) , KALEINAR-3V (150/2,8), avifot 400 as 200, March 2018

 

[santino]

FED 1, FED 50/2 (as Ernst Leitz Wetzlar Summar???))) f=5 cm 1:2), film - kodak 400 BW CN

Zorkiy 3m, Kharkov summar???))) 2/50 without clearing from 1937, image control in backlight, isopan 100, February 2018

Isn’t the the 50/2 from the Fed „sport“ a Taylor Hobson copy?

 

[Brambling]

Isn’t the the 50/2 from the Fed „sport“ a Taylor Hobson copy?

 

[Brambling]

Isn’t the the 50/2 from the Fed „sport“ a Taylor Hobson copy?

I don't know, do we mean the same thing?

 

[Brambling]

Isn’t the the 50/2 from the Fed „sport“ a Taylor Hobson copy?

If you have anything to read about this lens, please provide a link or tell me.
Thank you.
It’s very interesting that the issue of adjusting the Working Section is resolved here - very easily and within fairly large limits.

 

[santino]

Yes, we mean the same lens. I don’t have anything to read or a link but I think I read it on ussrphoto.com
The conclusion was that most people think that it is a Leica lens copy but it is not. Unfortunately I don’t remember details.

I don’t have this lens but an uncoated 50/3.5 Fed and there is something special to it 👍

 

[deltapuppy]

I agree with TenEleven, this one looks legitimate. The numbers on the insides of the lens barrel are parts numbers, not CZJ serial numbers, per se.

Here are the numbers! The shop said “…someone made a calibration ring from double side scotch tape, that's why it was not so easy to disassemble the lens - we had to apply very much force. But we had to, because we should calibrate it. From this moment the lens have calibration rings from paper as they should be and accurate infinity focusing. “

 

[dexdog]

Hello all - this is a 1949 ZK/J3 that’s being serviced in Ukraine. Are these numbers present in the Thiele book? Thanks in advance - I more than appreciate the goodwill and expertise here!

numbers check out according to Thiele's book, part of a batch of 2000 lenses completed in January 1946, made in Leica screw mount

 

[deltapuppy]

Here are the numbers! The shop said “…someone made a calibration ring from double side scotch tape, that's why it was not so easy to disassemble the lens - we had to apply very much force. But we had to, because we should calibrate it. From this moment the lens have calibration rings from paper as they should be and accurate infinity focusing

numbers check out according to Thiele's book, part of a batch of 2000 lenses completed in January 1946, made in Leica screw mount

Thank you Dex. Hey, how and where is the Thiele reference book available?

 

[dexdog]

Thank you Dex. Hey, how and where is the Thiele reference book available?

www.Lindemanns.de has this book available for about 60 euros. Shipping to much of the world appears to be about 30 euros, may be higher because the book weighs over one kilogram. I think that this is where I bought my copy 10+years ago.

 

[deltapuppy]

www.Lindemanns.de has this book available for about 60 euros. Shipping to much of the world appears to be about 30 euros, may be higher because the book weighs over one kilogram. I think that this is where I bought my copy 10+years ago.

Wow! Thank you! What a listing of books! Am I correct in saying this is the one commonly used in tracing the optical blocks that ended up in the USSR?

Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Lieferungen an die Kameraindustrie von 1927 bis 1991, Kamerage

Die kompetente Versand-Buchhandlung für Fotoliteratur: Bildbände - Fotolehrbücher - Photographica Literatur,Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und...

www.lindemanns.de

 

[dexdog]

Wow! Thank you! What a listing of books! Am I correct in saying this is the one commonly used in tracing the optical blocks that ended up in the USSR?

Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Lieferungen an die Kameraindustrie von 1927 bis 1991, Kamerage

Die kompetente Versand-Buchhandlung für Fotoliteratur: Bildbände - Fotolehrbücher - Photographica Literatur,Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und...

www.lindemanns.de

Yep, I think that this is the primary source of diverted CZJ optical blocks. The one Lindemanns has is the 2003 version, a revised version came out in 2011. The 2011 book came under criticism because Thiele included some interpolated data on probable serial number ranges that were not included in the 2003 version. I gave my copy of the 2003 version to someone on RFF after I got the revised version.

 

[deltapuppy]

Is there information available about the way those 2000 pieces were moved and used? Assuming my example dated 1949 is from that ‘46 batch I wonder if pieces bearing 1950, 51, 52 date rings have surfaced that are also from that lot? Brian you have a ‘49 I believe - is it from the 2000 pieces finished in ‘46? Or are their earlier lots that were moved and used sooner? I am modestly surprised that the Jena factory was up and running so soon after the war ended in ‘45. My mother-in-law grew up just outside Dresden, in neighbouring Saxony, and describes a great deal of turbulence, disruption and uncertainty as Russians arrived in those first months as one would expect.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have 1950 Jupiter-3's from the 272 batch and the 285/286 batch. Hard to know how many lenses from the wartime batches were actually completed, and how many remained unfinished are were carted back to the USSR to be completed as ZK and Jupiters. More of mine are from the 272 batch.

 

[deltapuppy]

I have 1950 Jupiter-3's from the 272 batch and the 285/286 batch. Hard to know how many lenses from the wartime batches were actually completed, and how many remained unfinished are were carted back to the USSR to be completed as ZK and Jupiters. More of mine are from the 272 batch.

Are you using the last 3 digits of the serial to identify the batch?

 

[dexdog]

Are you using the last 3 digits of the serial to identify the batch?

No, the first three digits of the CZJ serial number. The numbers stamped on the rear lens group fixture are normally the serial number of the CZJ lens, with the first digit removed. For example, my 1950 J-3 with zeiss components has 727386 stamped on the rear fixture, which corresponds to serial 2727386 for a 5cm/1.5 Sonnar as found in Thiele's book (i.e., it is a 272 batch lens)

 

[deltapuppy]

No, the first three digits of the CZJ serial number. The numbers stamped on the rear lens group fixture are normally the serial number of the CZJ lens, with the first digit removed. For example, my 1950 J-3 with zeiss components has 727386 stamped on the rear fixture, which corresponds to serial 2727386 for a 5cm/1.5 Sonnar as found in Thiele's book (i.e., it is a 272 batch lens)

Brilliant! And so my lens (846266) would presumably be from batch 284 (Dex did not give me the entire serial as recorded, just the year 1946). But if it’s 284 and in post-war batch, later than your 1950s, but with an earlier 1949 date ring, that would speak to the mixing of batches as they were assembled in the USSR. Which makes sense given the givens.

 

[Räuber]

Wow! Thank you! What a listing of books! Am I correct in saying this is the one commonly used in tracing the optical blocks that ended up in the USSR?

Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Lieferungen an die Kameraindustrie von 1927 bis 1991, Kamerage

Die kompetente Versand-Buchhandlung für Fotoliteratur: Bildbände - Fotolehrbücher - Photographica Literatur,Zeiss / Hartmut Thiele, Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II = Carl Zeiss Jena 1927 bis 1991., Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und...

www.lindemanns.de

That book is the right one. Fabrikationsbuch II from Hartmut Thiele. Beware it is in German. It contains all production batches of Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in a huge printed spreadsheet. It is quite easy to understand the content of this book but you might need some help with some labels. The linked book is the newest 2023 version. People all over the world write Mr. Thiele and point out some new serials missing in the book. So he updates it all the time and reprints it. He publishes his books all by himself.

To you other question regarding more information about how those Jena lenses where handled in the Jupiter production... Well, there is no official source about this. I know of no extensive writeup about this either. Mostly this chapter lies in the shadows of the past history. I came by this topic by accident in this forum thread.

USSRPhoto.com Forums - ZK Zorki And other uncommon Jupiter lenses

Since then I collected all serials of Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm I could find. If you want to have a look then go here:


This spreadsheet only contains Sonnar 5cm F1,5 lenses and is sorted by serial number. You will find some of those Jupiter lenses in the 1946 batches.

 

[Räuber]

Brilliant! And so my lens (846266) would presumably be from batch 284 (Dex did not give me the entire serial as recorded, just the year 1946). But if it’s 284 and in post-war batch, later than your 1950s, but with an earlier 1949 date ring, that would speak to the mixing of batches as they were assembled in the USSR. Which makes sense given the givens.

Carl Zeiss Jena engraved every lens block with the serial of the lens. That is the number you can find at the rear end of the lens. But CZJ left out the very first digit of the serial. You have to guess it. But we know from experience that in your case the missing number is 2. So your lens has the Carl Zeiss Jena serial 2846266. I already included it in my spreadsheet.

Jupiters use a different serial number schema than Carl Zeiss Jena lenses. The Soviet serials are easy to understand. The first digits are the year of production. Unfortunately CZJ did use a totally different system that did not allow to read the production year from the serial. You need the Fabrikationsbuch II to see the production year belonging to the serial. If you look at my spreadsheet you will find the production years too.

You will notice from the data in the spreadsheet that KMZ did not use the Jena lens blocks in the right order. They have not used the lens blocks from Jena in ascending order. I think they got a pile of lens blocks in chaotic order and just took from this pile lenses as they needed them for ZK or Jupiter production. Sometimes you have groups of lenses from the same batch ending up in the same years Jupiter production but this might only show that there where multiple piles, the lens blocks where taken in large groups together and kept together or that maybe someone sorted them a little bit at KMZ. 😀

 

[dexdog]

Brilliant! And so my lens (846266) would presumably be from batch 284 (Dex did not give me the entire serial as recorded, just the year 1946). But if it’s 284 and in post-war batch, later than your 1950s, but with an earlier 1949 date ring, that would speak to the mixing of batches as they were assembled in the USSR. Which makes sense given the givens.

The batch number in the Thiele book refers to the number of lenses completed as of a certain date. Rauber has incorporated the CZJ serial number production data into his database. The difference in the term "batch number" as used by Rauber is that he is basing his batch numbers on probable changes to the optical prescription of the various 5cm/1.5 Sonnars, i.e., not solely on the CZJ serial numbers. Rauber has done a lot of work characterizing the changes to the Sonnar prescriptionn over time that goes above and beyond simply recording serial number production dates from CZJ