Exposure or Exploitation? Do you work for free?

[Nikon Bob]

There was just an article in our newspaper about people taking internships just to get experience etc, and working for free. This is not directly related to photography but shows you the same attitude toward workers. The old if you don't like it there are a million unemployed people that would be happy to do it. It ought be against the labour law to be employed and not paid for your efforts. In the old union rhetoric it would be considered "scabbing". The race to the bottom is well underway. People are desperate today and will do virtually anything in hopes of future benefit. I guess they haven't heard of "and the cheque is in the mail".

Bob

 

[dave lackey]

How is this enforced? If the unpaid intern doesn't complain, how does the government learn of it?

Also, at what point does (usually unpaid) 'work experience' (a few days or weeks, a maximum of a couple of months) turn into an 'internship'?

What on earth is 'college credit' worth? In an 'academic' system where you can buy term papers if you're too stupid/ignorant/lazy to write 'em yourself? And how do you define 'related to their classwork', let alone 'training'?

Cheers,

R.

As in most things in employment law enforcement, it usually takes a "whistleblower" to report the illegal actions. I have worked for unscrupulous employers in the past 10 years and they get away with murder. But, enforcement does happen. 🙄What is college credit worth? A lot to my former students who worked very hard to get enough credits to obtain a degree from Georgia Tech and said degree actually has a "value" tagged to it by the marketers for the university. Don't remember what it was, though.

As far as I know, in the US, everyone must be paid a minimum wage after graduation. But then, in law school, I learned that there is an exception for every rule!😛

 

[Nikon Bob]

I never really understood doing free work for a credit at university or college. You are after all learning by doing a job (OJT) on the job training by any other name. You are working and should be paid. You paid the university to provide you an education and then they shop you out as free labour to let someone else teach you for a period of time. If I was cynical I might suspect there was kick back in all this somewhere. Just because something is against the law does not mean there is not wide spread abuse. In the case of the article I saw, people were working 2-3 years without pay on internship for a hint of future benefit and getting what they deserve,screwed, in the end. The same way companies like to hire on contract, no need to justify not renewing a contract. Makes it nearly impossible to get brought up in a wrongful dismissal case. Even hookers are smarter than that. You are worth something not nothing. Sure as heck glad I am retired and not seeking employment today.

Bob

 

[Roger Hicks]

I never really understood doing free work for a credit at university or college. You are after all learning by doing a job (OJT) on the job training by any other name. You are working and should be paid. You paid the university to provide you an education and then they shop you out as free labour to let someone else teach you for a period of time. If I was cynical I might suspect there was kick back in all this somewhere. Just because something is against the law does not mean there is not wide spread abuse. In the case of the article I saw, people were working 2-3 years without pay on internship for a hint of future benefit and getting what they deserve,screwed, in the end. The same way companies like to hire on contract, no need to justify not renewing a contract. Makes it nearly impossible to get brought up in a wrongful dismissal case. Even hookers are smarter than that. You are worth something not nothing. Sure as heck glad I am retired and not seeking employment today.

Bob

One to six weeks of 'work experience' per year are one thing, and I'd encourage anyone to do that. Months of actually working for no money are quite another matter, and doing it for years is pure insanity, unless you ratchet up your cynicism one more notch and assue that it's a way for rich kids (supported by their parents) to steal a wholly underserved march over those who have to earn a living as soon as possible. In other words, long-term 'internships' have replaced university as a place for rich kids to grow up a bit.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Maik]

I wanted to open a new thread on this but as this one addresses the same question I might as well continue here.

After graduating last year I've started working as freelance assistant a couple of months ago and do send applications now and then to photographers whose work does resonate with me. So in June I happened to come across an ad on Nadav Kander's website that they are looking for interns to help out in the studio - I applied because I was curious, and because sometimes internships are paid.

Shortly afterwards I received the following response, presumably from the head of production:

Many thanks for your e-mail.

Just to tell you a little more about the position it’s not a photographic
role so there will be no opportunity to go on set. We are looking for a
person to help out in the studio. Duties will include, fetching studio
supplies, making lunches, researching projects, entering data, keeping the
outside patio tidy etc etc. We will pay for travel expenses and lunches.
It’s a really great way of getting in the production and gallery side of the
industry.

Let me know if you are still interested and we could perhaps set up an
interview.

I didn't reply then and moved on with other things, also because I try not to let myself drag down by the notion that there's too much exploitation going on in the field. But this morning I came across the email again and felt I should respond for once, as unlikely as it'll do any good:

I've just rediscovered your mail and felt inclined to respond honestly, as as a graduate I'm confronted regularly with 'opportunities' to work for free. While I'm not opposed to unpaid work experience, the fact that most of these opportunities fail to point out what valuable experience and other benefits they offer in return for free work apart from an additional line on the CV, makes it difficult not to become a cynic.

The advert mentioned that the role doesn't involve real photographic assistance, and you're describing honestly what it does and does not involve, something that not every employer does these days. Nonetheless it's disappointing to see that someone with a profile like Mr Kander apparently is not willing to pay people to make lunch and keeping the studio patio tidy, all the more in that it doesn't quite fit the picture I have of him and his work. And while I know I would very much enjoy researching projects and certainly learn something (like in every job), it seems to be an assistance role involving general labour and hence I don't see why it shouldn't at least be remunerated with a minimum wage. You probably found someone who is willing to do this in return for travel expenses and being able to say "I've worked for Nadav Kander", but in light of these facts I think few people would still be impressed by that.

Working for free in return for useful experience yes, but not in return for having to prep sandwiches.

I'm curious how people here feel about the topic, and it would be great to get the opinion of both starting photographers having to consider unpaid work as well as of established pros or even studio owners who have people working for them for free. There are heated discussions elsewhere but they tend to obscure into cynical comments and accusations and unfortunately do little justice to the extent this issue should be discussed in my opinion (at least here in the UK).

Personally I do think there is unpaid work experience that is worth taking on, but I also think for one good position there are 9 offered which are arrogant and exploitative, and often it's very discouraging as it's inevitable to be confronted with them when you are looking for jobs. Should there be a legal obligation to pay at least a certain amount for internships/work experience? What are your thoughts?

 

[dave lackey]

Maik,

Never do anything for nothing. After 40 years in academic and professional business, that is the best advice I can give you. NEVER do anything for nothing. Either get credit for school, reimbursements, hourly pay, whatever, but don't do anything for nothing and don't make it worse by coming out of pocket to drive to the job.:angel:

 

[photogdave]

Good on you for calling them out. Hopefully more people will wake up and refuse to be exploited in this and similar businesses.
So many seem to expect something for nothing these days. Let's get back to earning our keep and rewarding hard work!

 

[Maik]

I regularly work for free when I shoot small events for the church in my neighborhood. Sometimes I get a bottle of altar wine and I bet I collect a lot of karma points with that 🙂

Good point Tom - in any case I think anyone would agree that voluntary for the community is something completely different to working for free for any for-profit company, and I don't think I would ever consider anything other than the former as you guys suggested. Unfortunately, from my own experience I know that with so many unpaid 'opportunities' along paid ones it's easy to get the feeling that working for free is the only way in, which benefits those who exploit. Having said that: if the issue remains on this level or, as seems to be the case, increases, it's perhaps time to lobby politicians for some form of legislation that makes such offers illegal in all but a few cases.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Good point Tom - in any case I think anyone would agree that voluntary for the community is something completely different to working for free for any for-profit company, and I don't think I would ever consider anything other than the former as you guys suggested. Unfortunately, from my own experience I know that with so many unpaid 'opportunities' along paid ones it's easy to get the feeling that working for free is the only way in, which benefits those who exploit. Having said that: if the issue remains on this level or, as seems to be the case, increases, it's perhaps time to lobby politicians for some form of legislation that makes such offers illegal in all but a few cases.

Quite probably, but the legislation would be a bar steward to write.

Let's take a nice, simple example. A friend's son or daughter, a student maybe, wants a bit of 'work experience'. You invite them to stay with you; they are in effect an au pair. Remember that 'au pair' is supposed to mean 'treated like a member of your own family' not 'unpaid servant'.

They do some work and help with the housekeeping. You give them some pocket money: nothing like minimum wage, but then, you're housing and feeding them.

Keeping that out of the net of minimum wage, etc., could be more interesting than it needs to be.

Now let's make it a little more interesting. They aren't staying with you, but with their parents a few miles away.

Now let's say that they're the child of a friend-of-a-friend.

Now let's say that you don't know them at all...

Laws are very bad at dealing with slippery slopes.

Cheers,

R.

 

[johannielscom]

Cost is always part of the equasion, not just for you but also the client. And as such it will likely be mentioned with the mouth-to-mouth thing. A piece of work that gets a lot of exposure will get a lot of talk too (you hope).

Doing stuff for free for 'exposure' only will get you this: "This guys work is real good and he did it for free!"

Now how are you going to justify not billing the one guy but billing the next?

Here's the solution: get some initial clients which you know to be discrete on pricing etc, or ask for their discretion. Charge them little money so they can say to their friends: "This guys work is real good and his prices are very acceptable!" Nobody's lying and no amounts get mentioned, while future clients still can envision a perk for them.

 

[Graham Line]

Used to do work for free, but now only family and close friends get pro bono stuff -- my feeling is that local not-for-profits (with paid staffs) are probably the worst offenders in expecting something for nothing, and the least grateful for contributions.

People who pay for products respect their suppliers. Once something has been supplied for free, there's a strong reluctance to pay even expenses.

Buzzardkid says it very well.

 

[kbg32]

Depends. One really needs to know when you are being taken advantage of...

 

[SciAggie]

In my experience no one appreciates free work. In my experience working for "exposure" is a lie. I believe you have to value your own work and price it accordingly.

I take a lot of high school sports pictures in our small town. Parents or players often seem shocked when I don't give away my work for free (I also work in the school system). They often are not hard to convince that my images have value. I point out that they pay for admission, drinks, snacks, fuel, t-shirts, etc - but my work should be free? They usually come around and pay gladly.

I take some pictures for free but it is not for exposure - it's just because I want to do it as a favor for someone. In those cases there is no expectation of anything other than a thank you.