GaryLH
Veteran
Yep. Just one camera and it is the x200. 
Gary
Gary
f16sunshine
Moderator
back alley
IMAGES
some days i just want things as simple as possible.
Tony Whitney
Well-known
My 1938 Leica IIIA is full frame! Seriously, just how much better can FF be compared to APS-C and a decent lens? And you'll be expected to pay another two grand for it!...TW
hitmanh
dum de dum de doo
This I don't understand. What's the difference between a 35mm lens on a full frame fixed lens camera and a 23mm lens on an aps-c fixed lens camera? Field of view is the same, Dof is close enough not to matter, so why pay more for the larger sensor, etc?
dmc
Bessa Driver
Try and find a 23mm DX Nikkor.
willie_901
Veteran
For all practical purposes there is no difference when the lens-to-subject distance is identical.
If the lens T-factors are similar, the sensor from the APS-C camera with a 23/1.4 lens will deliver essentially the same signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range as a camera with a 24 X 26 mm sensor (with identical technology) and a 35/2 lens delivers. Likewise for a m4/3 camera with a 17/1.2 lens. Any difference in DOF is due to optical design differences rather the underlying physics.
However the out-of-focuss-rendering aesthetics may be superior as the focal length increases.
Now that I own a Fujinon 23/1.4 XF lens, there is no need to wish for a 23 mm DX lens. Nikon's refusal to sell a lens for their DX bodies that will compete with their 35/1.4 G lens simply motivates me to abandon their brand… which I did.
Strawberry
Member
23mm on APS-C can feel different from 35mm on FF?
Just like medium format 80mm can feel different than from 50mm FF.
If you like the 35mm look or medium format look, or large format look,
you just want that look you like, you won't be satisfied replacing your 4/5" camera for a m4/3. Some people don't care about or don't feel the difference between those formats, other people do.
I am very curious what Fuji is going to do, it's the last step to a more flexible digital world. With film there is a body for any subject and any shooting style ... with digital we are stuck to huge monster FF cameras and small formats like aps-c and m4/3.
Sony has it's A7, Nikon has that Df thing that is closer to film SLR's in handling which is nice.
Just waiting for Fuji to make an A7 that handles more like a classic camera, like their current APS-C line. I'll probably buy one of those systems as some sort of digital Contax G. I don't want a smaller format sensor than the Contax and I don't want lousy Nex controls. I have some APS-c cams, canons and nexes and they just don't make 35mm pics, the small format pictures always feel more nervous in how they deal with rendering space. Large format feels very open in rendering space. If that wasn't the case the whole world would be shooting m4/3.
Just like medium format 80mm can feel different than from 50mm FF.
If you like the 35mm look or medium format look, or large format look,
you just want that look you like, you won't be satisfied replacing your 4/5" camera for a m4/3. Some people don't care about or don't feel the difference between those formats, other people do.
I am very curious what Fuji is going to do, it's the last step to a more flexible digital world. With film there is a body for any subject and any shooting style ... with digital we are stuck to huge monster FF cameras and small formats like aps-c and m4/3.
Sony has it's A7, Nikon has that Df thing that is closer to film SLR's in handling which is nice.
Just waiting for Fuji to make an A7 that handles more like a classic camera, like their current APS-C line. I'll probably buy one of those systems as some sort of digital Contax G. I don't want a smaller format sensor than the Contax and I don't want lousy Nex controls. I have some APS-c cams, canons and nexes and they just don't make 35mm pics, the small format pictures always feel more nervous in how they deal with rendering space. Large format feels very open in rendering space. If that wasn't the case the whole world would be shooting m4/3.
thompsonks
Well-known
Agree with the above, re: the 'look' of different formats, esp. re: DOF. But much of the difference of opinion re: APS-C and FF sensor sizes would go away if folks would just say what size prints they intend to make.
For the Internet you don't even need APS-C. For prints up to 13x19, unless you become a cropper, APS-C is fine. I make 14x21 prints as a rule, and for non-technical work like street shooting, my X100s earns a Pass at that size. At 14x21 the APS-C / FF difference (X100s vs. Leica) is important to me mainly with regard to subtle tonal transitions (even more than sharpness). For careful work at that size, the APS-C / FF difference is visible and matters to me.
YMMV – but it will vary substantially with your intended print size?
For the Internet you don't even need APS-C. For prints up to 13x19, unless you become a cropper, APS-C is fine. I make 14x21 prints as a rule, and for non-technical work like street shooting, my X100s earns a Pass at that size. At 14x21 the APS-C / FF difference (X100s vs. Leica) is important to me mainly with regard to subtle tonal transitions (even more than sharpness). For careful work at that size, the APS-C / FF difference is visible and matters to me.
YMMV – but it will vary substantially with your intended print size?
eleskin
Well-known
What more full frame choices means to me
What more full frame choices means to me
I have been using Leica since 1991, and have amassed quite a large used M mount lens collection. I used to shoot full frame, back when I used my M4-2 and M6. My M8 was my first digital because of my lens collection, I was in no mood to re buy lenses for a Nikon or Canon outfit. At $4,700 (M8) , that WILL be the most I will EVER spend again on ANY camera. That rules out the M240 for me and many others like me. My X-Pro is wonderful, but as I do have the M adapter, although good, I just feel I am not getting enough coverage from my 50mm Noctilux 1.0, 35mm Nokton, 35mm and 50mm Summicrons, etc,,, . You all get the point. Then comes Sony with their new A7 and A7R. I tested the A7r and was blown away with my Noctilux attached. If the A7r looked like the X Pro-1 that would have been the perfect camera for me. So now we hear rumors Fuji is working on something full frame, most likely an X-Pro body. IF they buy the EVF from Sony, and still have the Hybrid viewfinder, that would be incredible.
At any rate, right now, Lenses are my best investment, and thank God we are getting cheaper cameras that are ful frame! Cameras are NOT worth any more than $3000 at the most to me. Now the lenses are a different question. My Noctilux can testify to that!
What more full frame choices means to me
I have been using Leica since 1991, and have amassed quite a large used M mount lens collection. I used to shoot full frame, back when I used my M4-2 and M6. My M8 was my first digital because of my lens collection, I was in no mood to re buy lenses for a Nikon or Canon outfit. At $4,700 (M8) , that WILL be the most I will EVER spend again on ANY camera. That rules out the M240 for me and many others like me. My X-Pro is wonderful, but as I do have the M adapter, although good, I just feel I am not getting enough coverage from my 50mm Noctilux 1.0, 35mm Nokton, 35mm and 50mm Summicrons, etc,,, . You all get the point. Then comes Sony with their new A7 and A7R. I tested the A7r and was blown away with my Noctilux attached. If the A7r looked like the X Pro-1 that would have been the perfect camera for me. So now we hear rumors Fuji is working on something full frame, most likely an X-Pro body. IF they buy the EVF from Sony, and still have the Hybrid viewfinder, that would be incredible.
At any rate, right now, Lenses are my best investment, and thank God we are getting cheaper cameras that are ful frame! Cameras are NOT worth any more than $3000 at the most to me. Now the lenses are a different question. My Noctilux can testify to that!
GaryLH
Veteran
Plus one. I also still have a number of legacy rf and slr lenses around from Leica, cv, canon, Zeiss and Nikon. Not sure if I will ever buy a ff camera, but the price is dropping and the tech is getting better... Maybe one day .. Especially if it is a Fuji xp1 like camera.
If someone were to come out w/ a camera body design like the Fuji xp1 and a foveon like sensor, my GAS attack would go through the roof, does even have to be ff sensor. Ricoh gxr m module is currently where I normally use my rf glass.
Gary
If someone were to come out w/ a camera body design like the Fuji xp1 and a foveon like sensor, my GAS attack would go through the roof, does even have to be ff sensor. Ricoh gxr m module is currently where I normally use my rf glass.
Gary
The X-Pro1 has been my favorite camera since it came out. Add Fast AF and a FF Sensor and I'll probably sell all of my other cameras.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
http://www.fujirumors.com/x-roadmap-20142015-weather-sealed-lenses-and-full-frame-x/
Well according to this rumor or rather several rumors in one post.
- Fuji been using the Sony sensors and is waiting to get the new one that is on the a7 family. But Sony is does not release it to others until 6 months after they have used it.
- the x200 looks like the first ff followed by the xpro version, but given this info, no one is sure if this will end up late 2014 or early 2015 now
- also part of this rumor is new lens roadmap that has weather sealed lenses and a constant 2.8 zoom. Which makes one wonder if they are going to announce an apsc version of the xp1 in first half of 2014 which is weather sealed and bring out a new family designation for the ff camera line. If they are using Sony, could they be putting the 24mp sensor on the xp2 then?
- on the other hand 2015 timeframe could also be the right time for that organic sensor that they have been working on w/ Panasonic.
Interesting times
Gary
I have read that the Fuji X-Trans sensor base is made by Toshiba not Sony.
GaryLH
Veteran
Did not know tosihba was making sensors. Interesting.
The organic sensor that fuji and Panasonic are collaborating on should be interesting.
Gary
The organic sensor that fuji and Panasonic are collaborating on should be interesting.
Gary
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I'm sure Gary already read this very interesting post at the Fuji X Forum that describes the new organic sensor technology, but being a slowpoke I only just got to it:
http://www.*****************/index.php/topic/14830-just-what-is-this-new-organic-sensor-thing/
This article makes it sound like the potential is there to make an APS-C sensor that will far surpass in all sorts of ways any FF sensor around today within two years.
At least it might help some people sleep better at night against the din of A7/r feeding frenzies.
willie_901
Veteran
It is possible Fuji is betting the ranch on APS-C organic-sensor technology.
Their investment in developing an excellent, diverse XF lens line-up makes more sense if Fuji believes organic APS-C sensors can outperform current and future 24 X 36 mm CMOS sensors in terms of analog signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range.
People have calculated the maximum performance for CMOS sensor technology.
This link shows the results from one of these calculations.
However it is perilous to underestimate the limits of a particular technology.
Their investment in developing an excellent, diverse XF lens line-up makes more sense if Fuji believes organic APS-C sensors can outperform current and future 24 X 36 mm CMOS sensors in terms of analog signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range.
People have calculated the maximum performance for CMOS sensor technology.
This link shows the results from one of these calculations.
However it is perilous to underestimate the limits of a particular technology.