FSU lenses on a IVsb?

[ludoo]

Yesterday, despite having decided to stop buying cameras for a while and save some money, I placed a lowball bid on an ebay IVsb. I was sure it would go past the 100 euro mark, and my bid was just insurance against the one in a million chance it stayed low. It happened twice in the past (not with cameras) on auctions where I did not bid, and I felt really stupid the day after when I went to check the final price.

Moral of the story is, I'm now the owner of this IVsb with heavy lens cap. I don't have any money to spend on fancy lenses now, and since I have a few FSU lenses I was wondering if there were any problems fitting them to the Canon.

I assume I won't have any problems with the I-61, and will probably have to register the J-8 that comes with the camera. But what about the J-12 and the collapsible Industar-10 (post-war FED 50mm)? Will they fit without damaging anything?

I know the IVsb is a pretty common model and there are better Canon RF bodies, but I'm really excited about it. I find Canon RFs really beautiful cameras, and have been lusting after one for a while.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I sold a combo like that, and adjusted the J-8 for the Canon IVSB before selling it.

1955 J-8 on Canon IVSB, wide-open at F2.

I would not call it a lens cap. Lens caps cannot take pictures like this.

 

[lkgroup]

I have the camera Brian is talking about, The Canon IVSB, and have tried the FED I-10, collapsible and the Jupiter 12 35mm on the camera. There isn't any hitting or damage and they make good lenses to use on this camera. The lens I use most on the IVSB is the Jupiter J-8 That Brian Adjusted to Leica standards.

Leo

 

[John Shriver]

The space in the shutter chamber of the Canon bottom-loaders is the same as in the Leica screw-mounts. It's just some of the later Canon cameras (particularly 7, P, and 7s) that have those baffles.

 

[ludoo]

Thanks for all the replies!

I would not call it a lens cap. Lens caps cannot take pictures like this.

It was a bad joke on my part, especially since I have wanted a J-8 for a while after reading some of your posts here and seeing your pictures. 🙂 I thought I would get it with a Zorki 3M I found locally and intended to buy in a few weeks, I never thought it would come with a Canon RF.

So I guess I'll have to register the lens, probably using a comination of film on the IVsb and transparent tape on one of my FSU bodies. Will probably come back for help when the camera arrives.

 

[Mablo]

I have a Canon IV-Sb that I'm mostly using with my VC 21mm + external viewfinder. A wonderful, light and effective combo. I've tested the camera and collapsed my 5cm Summitar into it without problems so I guess that the shorter Industar-22 will be okay.

Having read Dante Stella's article about the FSU vs. Leitz focus error I think that the error is more relevant when focusing on shorter distances and using longer FSU-lenses like 85mm. Please correct me If I'm wrong.

 

[ludoo]

I just received my IVsb, and I'm surprised at how tiny it is, and how solid it feels. It's the most beautiful camera I have ever had, now let's only hope everything works as it should.

 

[Spider67]

I've used my IV Sb with a J 12 wide open at minimum distance even the 35mm DOF cannot hide the different lens standard.
The feel of that camera is great!.....I just wish it hadn't so many pinholes.
I use the great 50mm Serenar now with my Bessa

 

[ludoo]

I'll try to "fix" the clean if a bit wobbly J-8 that came with the camera, worst case I'll set apart some money for one of the cheapest Leice/Canon/CV lenses, probably a Canon 50mm 1.8.

 

[wakarimasen]

I sold a combo like that, and adjusted the J-8 for the Canon IVSB before selling it.



1955 J-8 on Canon IVSB, wide-open at F2.

I would not call it a lens cap. Lens caps cannot take pictures like this.

Can you explain your comment above - what adjustment was necessary? I have a few FSU lenses (J-8, J-12, I-61 and I-26) and intend to get a Canon rangefinder soon....

Best regards,
RoyM

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The FSU lenses are built to the Contax standard focal length of a nominal 52.4mm The cams of the wide-angle and telephoto lenses translate to the Contax standard as well. The Canon is built to the Leica standard of a nominal ~51.6mm. The difference in focus throw from 3ft to infinity is 0.1mm, enough to produce a soft focus when used wide-open. You can optimize the FSU lens to work well close-up and wide-open on a Leica type camera by adjusting the variable stand-off ring or changing the Shim on the lens. Typically, adding 0.1mm does the trick- but individual lenses need to be set to the camera.

 

[ludoo]

Just to continue on my IVsb story, I stopped at my repairman this morning as I noticed one of the curtains has some goo on it, either something used to repair pinholes or some oil. He also found that 1 sec and 1/2 a sec were essentially the same speed, something he says is quite normal on these cameras and can be easily fixed. On the positive side, the rf mirror is still bright, nothing seems permanently damaged and the small bump on the top can be easily reshaped.

He will check the shutter curtains and see if they need replacing, and give it a general cleanup and adjustment, as I did not trust my limited skills. He says he will also calibrate the lens, let's see how much it costs me (he usually charges me a fair price as he likes working on classic cameras), I can't wait to have it in my hands again.

 

[outfitter]

He says he will also calibrate the lens, let's see how much it costs me

It really does pay to learn to do some of the basic CLA yourself (info is widely available on the web) as the cost of skilled labor often exceeds the value of the classic camera. As to calibration, most of the Zeiss originals were calibrated at infinity - I suspect that is what your repairman will do also - so the different standard won't be too critical. Some enthusiasts prefer to optimize these lenses for minimum focus (otherwise there is a focus shift when used wide open, even on Sonnar type lenses manufactured for the Leica standard). It just a question of how you like to work.

 

[ludoo]

It really does pay to learn to do some of the basic CLA yourself (info is widely available on the web) as the cost of skilled labor often exceeds the value of the classic camera.

I did some minor repairs and cleaning on some of my cameras and lenses, but I would not trust myself with the IVsb, especially if the shutter curtains are involved. I hope I'll get there, in the meantime I prefer to play it safe, especially since my repairman charges about 30 euros for a CLA. The IVsb will be more I guess, I just hope it does not need new curtains.

As to calibration, most of the Zeiss originals were calibrated at infinity - I suspect that is what your repairman will do also - so the different standard won't be too critical. Some enthusiasts prefer to optimize these lenses for minimum focus (otherwise there is a focus shift when used wide open, even on Sonnar type lenses manufactured for the Leica standard). It just a question of how you like to work.

Yes, that's what I gathered reading a few posts here, mainly by Brian. I will discuss the issue with my repairman (which btw used to be the head tech guy at the local Zeiss branch in the late '60s) when I check on what needs to be done on the IVsb.

 

[ludoo]

An update on my IVsb in case anyone is interested: I got word from my repairman today that it needs new curtains. So in the end it will get a full CLA, new curtains, the small bump on the top straightened, the body cleaned, and the lens calibrated.

I will spend about twice what I originally thought, but will end up having a camera that will probably work for another 50 years, so I'm pretty happy about it.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I just received my IVsb, and I'm surprised at how tiny it is, and how solid it feels. It's the most beautiful camera I have ever had, now let's only hope everything works as it should.

I agree, I was shocked at how beautiful this camera is. It is in no way sub-Leica.

 

[ludoo]

I picked up the camera from my repairman this morning, here it is next to a cold coffee (it's really, really hot around here)

He had to change one of the curtains, which had a tear and was full of sticky black gunk. The RF prism has a bit of oxidation but the patch is visible and clear enough.

The CLA made a huge difference: the film advance is now super smooth, and there's a feel of mechanical precision to every control. It was definitely worth it. He also checked the lens collimation at infinity and says it's perfect.

A pic of the curtain he had to replace

 

[John Shriver]

The Canon cemented half-silvered prism holds up much better than the half-silvered mirror in screwmount Leicas.

 

[ludoo]

I did a quick film test of my 3 FSU lenses on the IVsb: J-8, I-61, and J-12 (I also have a collapsible I-10 but did not have the time to test it). Before getting to the scans, I have to say that I absolutely love using the IVsb: it's small, solid, and both the film advance and shutter release are the smoothest among all the cameras I have tried.

Ok, on to the pics. Bear in mind that they stress my poor crappy Canoscan 2700F to its limits, and so they are barely enough to understand what's going on. I will probably enlarge the negatives as soon as I have finished setting up my darkroom, and scan the prints. All the lenses were focused on the 1.50m mark of the ruler using the rangefinder.

The best of the bunch seems to be the J-12, where the focus seems ok, maybe a couple of centimeters further than it should.

The J-8 looks more or less ok too, maybe the actual focus is a few cm. nearer to the lens

The worst of the bunch is surprisingly the I-61

What do you think, should I try to shim the J-8 and J-12, or are they good enough for most uses? I will definitely leave the I-61 alone as I'm not interested in using it on the IVsb.

 

[lmd91343]

Ludoo,

Two of three lenses focus too close. The third I can't see clearly.

Before you get the lenses shimmed, you should check that the RF is set properly and the lens mount to film plane distance is proper. When the repairman replaced the curtain, he had to remove and replace the lens mount ring. If the ring is off by .03mm, the camera will never focus right.

The RF on the camera is easy to check. Set the lens to infinity and check to see if a distant object "lines up" correctly in the viewfinder.

The lens mount surface to film plane distance should be 28.80mm. It is easy to check with a digital micrometer.

Enjoy your camera! I agree with you assessment. I have a IV SB2. I think its great.