Hasselblad rangefinder screen

[jcr]

My Hasselblad 503CW uses a rangefinder type of focusing screen ... wouldn't that qualify it as well as an RF MF camera ? 🙂

 

[sjw617]

I do not believe the Hasselblad 503CW has a rangefinder despite which focusing screen is used.

 

[Solinar]

Even though the Hassy screen has a prism, focusing is through lens onto a screen. Put the lens cap on and you won't be able to focus.

Put a lens cap on a viewfinder or rangefinder camera and you can practice focusing all you want.

 

[MikeL]

Put a lens cap on a viewfinder or rangefinder camera and you can practice focusing all you want.

You can also take photos this way. I 'practiced' this way often when I first started using a rangefinder, and my negatives show it.🙂

 

[jcr]

Thanks, guys. Just toying with the idea. 🙂

Well, of course one cannot focus with the lens cap on. But this does not a rangefinder make. And I also don't focus on my Leica with the lens cap on ??? Otherwise, I will forget to remove it when taking the shot, it's not good practise. Furthermore, I hardly focus through the viewfinder, what's a rangefinder for ? I use zone focusing, unless I have all the time in the world to focus. Furthermore, my Leica's rangefinder spot, which is probably tops among rangefinders, is pathetic compared to the 4 or 5x as big Hassy's. My Yashica Electro GSN has the most terrible viewfinder, but at 20x below the price of a Leica, I'm not complaining.

The Hassy is not an auto modern DSLR, this is old glorious classic stuff. Like the lens has all the markings that a Leica lens has, plus EV settings too. One can do zone focusing, Merklinger's infinity focusing (which is not really good, only for emergency use), or hyperfocal distance focusing. The difference is that in zone focusing, the range of distances is narrower with an MF.

A Hassy 80mm has more distance marks than my 35mm or 50mm Leitz, due to its large diameter - like 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 1.7, ... My 90mm and upwards Leitz has almost nothing ... In this sense, it is easier to dial in the range without looking through the viewfinder (which is also through mirrors, mine is actually on top of the camera). I just compared it with a M6, they both show the same distance on the scales focusing on the same object.

Anyway, it is as loud as a gunshot, and fully loaded is as big or heavy as 3 or 4 Leica Ms, so in this sense it fails miserably as a street rangefinder. But for other uses, it practically works similar, no parallax issues too. I guess it does not have a "real rangefinder" with all the issues like parallax and coupling, just a pseudo-application of the same concept.

Well, I'll treat it as a pseudo-rangefinder then. 🙂 I'll still have my Leicas of course, these 2 are great stuff in their own applications.

 

[Finder]

A rangefinder is a device that uses triangulation to determine object distance. A focusing screen is a device to determine focus from a projected real image. If the focused image is created by a small aperture like f/16, object distance will be impossible to determine. Rangefinders are not affected by the image-forming optics.

BTW, a rangefinder does not need to be mechanical. Electronic rangefinders exist. Nor do they have to be in a camera. Rangefinders are the distance calculating mechanism. Ordinance and golf have uses for rangefinders. The Leica is a rangefinder AND a viewfinder camera - one is simply built into the other.

 

[jcr]

A rangefinder is a device that uses triangulation to determine object distance. A focusing screen is a device to determine focus from a projected real image. If the focused image is created by a small aperture like f/16, object distance will be impossible to determine. Rangefinders are not affected by the image-forming optics.

BTW, a rangefinder does not need to be mechanical. Electronic rangefinders exist. Nor do they have to be in a camera. Rangefinders are the distance calculating mechanism. Ordinance and golf have uses for rangefinders. The Leica is a rangefinder AND a viewfinder camera - one is simply built into the other.

Thanks, but I beg to disagree, at least in the case of the Hassy. Aperture has nothing to do with the Hassy rangefinder screen. I just focused on an object using my Leica M and Hassy, using the distance scales. Both come out the same. Aperture has no impact at all.

IMHO, it is a true rangefinder screen; otherwise, Hasselblad would not call it "rangefinder". It is actually in a sense a viewfinder and a rangefinder at the same time too, although they are separate from each other - the rangefinder screen is placed on the body, and the viewfinder looks through it.

However, it also shows my Leica rangefinder is spot on, no need to CLA 🙂

 

[EmilGil]

There is no rangefinder in a Hasselblad body, the mirror projects the image on a ground glass on the same distance from the mirror as the film plane. You then focus the lens to project a sharp image on the ground glass. A split screen is just a specially ground glass. This is something very different from a rangefinder, as pointed out above by Finder.

Finder is also right when it comes to stop-down focusing. The reason that you couldn't see any difference between your Leica and Hassy is that the Hassy focuses at maximum aperture. If you stop down the lens, your image will darken and you will see the depth of field. Once stopped down to f/16, an object 10m away will look equally sharp when the lens is focused at 8m as at 12m.

 

[jcr]

Thanks.

But I am speaking on experience, not theory. I guess in theory that would be it. But like I said, I was comparing both, an hour ago. I tried it on all aperture settings. It does not darken at all, f/2 to f/16 or f/22. And that is why I said aperture setting has no impact.

It will only darken if I activate the DOF switch on the lens, this is also stated in the Hassy manual. But this is only for checking whether DOF is as desired, not during focusing or finding the range.

I guess I have to ask Hasselblad about this.

I guess I am the only one here with a Hassy with rangefinder screen and Leica M, and confirm ?

There is no rangefinder in a Hasselblad body, the mirror projects the image on a ground glass on the same distance from the mirror as the film plane. You then focus the lens to project a sharp image on the ground glass. A split screen is just a specially ground glass. This is something very different from a rangefinder, as pointed out above by Finder.

Finder is also right when it comes to stop-down focusing. The reason that you couldn't see any difference between your Leica and Hassy is that the Hassy focuses at maximum aperture. If you stop down the lens, your image will darken and you will see the depth of field. Once stopped down to f/16, an object 10m away will look equally sharp when the lens is focused at 8m as at 12m.

 

[Kris]

I guess I am the only one here with a Hassy with rangefinder screen and Leica M, and confirm ?

No you're not the only one. I do have Accute Matte D with split screen - and microprism.

You just haven't fully understood the difference between Leica RF and this 'rangefinder split image' on focusing screen.

When you change aperture on your lens, without depressing DOF preview, the lens stays wide open.

The split image does not work with lenses having maximum aperture slower than 5.6 - give or take.

You can try visualising a lens with max aperture of F8 by setting F8 on your 80/2.8 and lock that DOF lever. You'll now see that half of the split screen goes dark or black and it does not aid you to focus.

Finally, I think focusing a Blad is a b**** compared to an M3/M4/XPan. Can't focus accurately without the loupe. With the loupe up, I can't really see the whole image! The distance scale marked on the lens may be great for landscape stuff with plenty of DOF but when using Blad 150/2.8 or Summicron 90/2 wide open, there's no way I will not use focusing screen with loupe up (Blad) or focusing patch (RF camera).

 

[EmilGil]

I don't know how to explain this for you to understand better JCR, but I'll emphasize once more: there is no rangefinder mechanism in a V-series Hasselblad body. You are using a projected image to focus your 'blad, not a split beam image as in a Leica. Even though you have a split image screen, this is not the same thing as a split beam finder.

The following explanation of a microprism split screen, such as the Acute Matte D, is taken from Richard Oleson at Photo.net:

This is hard to do without drawing a picture: the center circle consists of 2 prisms, each in the shape of a semicircle. One has the thick end toward your left, and the other has its thick end toward your right. The center of each prism is at the level of the ground glass, so the thin end is recessed into the glass and the thick end sticks out a little. When an image is in focus it hits at the intersection where both prisms are at the plane of the screen. If it's out, the prisms bend the image, one to the left and the other to the right, making it appear to split at the line between the 2 prisms.

 

[jcr]

Oh, that's great !

Just one more - I use it with a PME 45 viewfinder, and I use a 503CW, + a CW Winder. With the CW motorized winder, just need to press the shutter. Do you use the same ? I should have mentioned this earlier.

Yes, I am still trying to understand, which I feel has not yet been answered, so pardon the questions.

I am focusing Leica M rangefinder-style, nothing darkens on the viewfinder at any aperture, then I just click the shutter on the CW winder. Exactly the same as on the Leica M.

Of course, depressing the DOF switch can darken the view. But it is not related at all to focusing rangefinder style. It is not for focusing too, it is only for checking DOF, I already mentioned that earlier. Even on my Nikon DSLR, it is only for checking, not to use with focusing. More like just a check if the aperture is set enough to get the DOF one wants.

So it does not matter if aperture remains wide open (I have to verify this later when I'm with the cameras, as I use the CW Winder which keeps the lens cocked during focusing). The point is it focuses rangefinder style, getting the right distance too.

Now what is a loupe ? Is that the magnifying glass on the waist-level finder ? Well, I don't use that waist-level finder (more like a chest-level finder), I use the PME-45 viewfinder, super viewfinder. The waist-level is nuts, plus it is inverted image, really weird. I keep it in its box where it belongs.

No you're not the only one. I do have Accute Matte D with split screen
- and microprism.

You just haven't fully understood the difference between Leica RF and this 'rangefinder split image' on focusing screen.

When you change aperture on your lens, without depressing DOF preview, the lens stays wide open.

The split image does not work with lenses having maximum aperture slower than 5.6 - give or take.

You can try visualising a lens with max aperture of F8 by setting F8 on your 80/2.8 and lock that DOF lever. You'll now see that half of the split screen goes dark or black and it does not aid you to focus.

Finally, I think focusing a Blad is a b**** compared to an M3/M4/XPan. Can't focus accurately without the loupe. With the loupe up, I can't really see the whole image! The distance scale marked on the lens may be great for landscape stuff with plenty of DOF but when using Blad 150/2.8 or Summicron 90/2 wide open, there's no way I will not use focusing screen with loupe up (Blad) or focusing patch (RF camera).

 

[Kris]

My apology JCR. I didn't realise you were trolling instead of looking for some clarification.

Maybe i should have kept myself away from RFF permanently. Can you please delete my account Joe/Ralph/Jorge?

 

[EmilGil]

The lens must be cocked for you to be able to focus, if not your focus screen will be pitch black. The use of a winder does not alter this fact but it will relieve you from cocking the shutter and winding the film. Every time you wind the film, you will also cock the shutter of the mounted lens.

Let me try to explain it this way: Focusing your Leica, you use your finder and the patch. The patch is lit by a small hole in the camera body top cover to the left of the lens. The distance between this hole and the finder is the rangefinder base. Multiply this distance by your finder magnification (typically 0.72) and you have the EBL, effective base length. A long EBL simplifies focusing long and/or fast lenses accurately. The Hassy on the other hand is a single lens reflex type camera, SLR, which you focus by looking through the lens! Without a second hole/lens to form the rangefinder base, you can't focus this camera as a rangefinder.

This is the difference; a SLR is focused by looking through one lens, the RF by "looking through two lenses" (the finder and the beamsplitter image from under the shutter speed selector).

 

[jcr]

Thanks, Emil. I know there is no rangefinder mechanism in a V Hasselblad, 100% sure.

But what I am trying to say is that my particular set functions like it, exactly like it. "Pseudo-rangefinder" like I mentioned.

I can drop this query easily if it measures a different range from the Leica, or even the Yashica Electro GSN I have. But it comes out the same on the distance scale of the lens. Like if focused at an object 5m away, all 3 cameras will show 5m on the lens. 😕

I don't know how to explain this for you to understand better JCR, but I'll emphasize once more: there is no rangefinder mechanism in a V-series Hasselblad body. You are using a projected image to focus your 'blad, not a split beam image as in a Leica. Even though you have a split image screen, this is not the same thing as a split beam finder.

The following explanation of a microprism split screen, such as the Acute Matte D, is taken from Richard Oleson at Photo.net:

This is hard to do without drawing a picture: the center circle consists of 2 prisms, each in the shape of a semicircle. One has the thick end toward your left, and the other has its thick end toward your right. The center of each prism is at the level of the ground glass, so the thin end is recessed into the glass and the thick end sticks out a little. When an image is in focus it hits at the intersection where both prisms are at the plane of the screen. If it's out, the prisms bend the image, one to the left and the other to the right, making it appear to split at the line between the 2 prisms.

 

[jcr]

What trolling ? I am seeking clarification ...

Every factor must be considered in comparisons. My IT background coming in. If ... else ... then ...

My apology JCR. I didn't realise you were trolling instead of looking for some clarification.

Maybe i should have kept myself away from RFF permanently. Can you please delete my account Joe/Ralph/Jorge?

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

Do you still have the box for the Hasselblad and the receipt?

If so, take it back to the shop and ask for your money back for this rangefinder.

 

[jcr]

Thanks, Emil. With the CW Winder, the lens is always cocked.

I understand they are totally different concepts then. Ok, bottomline is, it is not a rangefinder.

I was reading another website, and they said the Xpan rangefinder is not really a rangefinder. Anyway, enough of that.

So the only similarity in this case is they focus the same way (from the outside, without looking at the internal workings) ... which of course doesn't mean it's a rangefinder.

Anyway, you're right, it's not a ramgefinder. But I like the way it focuses like a rangefinder.

The lens must be cocked for you to be able to focus, if not your focus screen will be pitch black. The use of a winder does not alter this fact but it will relieve you from cocking the shutter and winding the film. Every time you wind the film, you will also cock the shutter of the mounted lens.

Let me try to explain it this way: Focusing your Leica, you use your finder and the patch. The patch is lit by a small hole in the camera body top cover to the left of the lens. The distance between this hole and the finder is the rangefinder base. Multiply this distance by your finder magnification (typically 0.72) and you have the EBL, effective base length. A long EBL simplifies focusing long and/or fast lenses accurately. The Hassy on the other hand is a single lens reflex type camera, SLR, which you focus by looking through the lens! Without a second hole/lens to form the rangefinder base, you can't focus this camera as a rangefinder.

This is the difference; a SLR is focused by looking through one lens, the RF by "looking through two lenses" (the finder and the beamsplitter image from under the shutter speed selector).

 

[jcr]

I don't see the sense in your advice ? Or the reason for your feeling ? It's just cameras, for crying out loud 🙂

Well, I like both. And there was no shop unfortunately, got it from a friend ...

Did anyone tell you you look like Sean Connery ?

Do you still have the box for the Hasselblad and the receipt?

If so, take it back to the shop and ask for your money back for this rangefinder.

 

[Solinar]

To troll or not to troll, that is only question at this point.