Help deciding which body to keep!

[styvone]

I'm trying to thin the herd of Leica's in my stable. I have a chrome M4 in beater condition, and an M4-P in roughly the same condition. I got them not too long ago for the same amount of money, and cannot make up my mind on which one to sell!

To me, the advantages of the M4-P are its black chrome finish (much, much nicer than the M4), the hot shoe, and 28mm frame lines (I shoot mainly 35mm, followed by 28mm). I'm aware that the M4 has a self-timer, but I honestly prefer no self-timer since it's easier to grip without one (and I practically never use it).

The only advantage of the M4 over the M4-P to me is the purported "classic Leica build quality". In fact, I reached out recently to legendary Youxin Ye, who told me that "it would be a pity to trade out an M4 for an M4-P, since it is one of the worst built". Now, I've been reading a lot online about this, but most claims of German superiority appear unsubstantiated. Also, an advantage of the M4 is the flare-free finder.

I've also heard that 28mm lines in .72 finder is fiddly at best, but I still want them. The thought that I'd spend so much on a camera that cannot natively support a focal length that I shoot is bonkers to me (I also use a shoe-mount light meter quite often, so aux finders wouldn't be possible). I also asked YYe if I can install 28mm lines into an M4, but he said there is a shortage of MP frame line assembly parts from Leica USA at the moment.

What would you do?

 

[aizan]

I would sell both and buy a 0.58 body (M6TTL, M7, or MP).

 

[Larry H-L]

Only you can decide what is best for you. If it was me, I'd pick the one that I enjoy shooting with the most.

One other option, sell both, get what you really want.

 

[xayraa33]

I would pick the camera that is most useful to you to make photographs...I got the M3 and M2 and M4 but my most used M series cameras are my two M4-2 cameras, had them since the late 70s to 1980 and they never have let me down. All these are old cameras now and if they survived this long in use with out breaking down then none of them are really badly built .

 

[Retro-Grouch]

I could be wrong (not an expert on Leica trivia here) but I believe that the M4-P was given the "P" for "professional". I think it was produced at the same time as the M4-2; I owned both at the same time, long ago, and the M4-2 was definitely not the equal of the M4-P in terms of construction. A quick glance at both, side by side, would confirm that.
But that's not your question; my non-expert opinion is that the M4-P is the equal of any Leicas after the M2. Tough as nails, and, in good condition with a CLA, pretty much guaranteed to outlast you.
I have the utmost respect for Youxin Ye, and won't let anyone else service my Leicas. I haven't seen anecdotal evidence that would support his opinion in this case, however.
And yes, with the .72 finder, the 28 framelines are fiddly. I have the M6TTL with the .58 finder, and shooting the 28 is a pleasure on that camera. However, keep in mind that the framelines on Leicas after the M4 (all models) are rather inaccurate. The 35 framelines cover a good deal less than the actual film image, in particular. It always seems that there's something annoying about these otherwise superb cameras!
My vote, in short, would be for the M4-P. But only you can say for sure what will best meet your needs.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Sell or keep what you want however, you can use the whole viewfinder of the M4 and have the field of view of a 28mm lens. That's the same thing that is going on in the M4-P, as the magnification is the same. The finder in the M4-P is cluttered in the opinion of many, myself included. I've owned both but used the M4 the heaviest. It survived combat in Iraq, along with an M2 (which might be the one you're selling, actually.) My M4-P came to me with a partially blacked out finder and heavily worn drive gears. Youxin massaged that camera and customized the finder for me, also removing the red dot. That camera is now in Singapore with another RFF member, if I recall correctly. After all that, I still have my M4. This is what I chose though, and shouldn't have any bearing upon your choice.

Phil Forrest

 

[Tom R]

I use twin M4-P's. These cameras are durable, dependable and offer additional finders (compared to the M4). In addition, they have hot shoe support for more modern speed lights, etc. (I'm told that they also support motor drives, but most people probably don't use these cameras in those kinds of applications ... I'm thinking here about action, news, etc. I used Nikon F's for that kind of work---many years ago, and they worked just fine.)

That being said, cameras are tools to me. I've heard the arguments about the M4's classic/smooth operation, etc., compared to the M4-P. I've also heard about "resale values." But, I don't sell cameras, I use them.

I'm sure that many others will offer differing opinions on this topic.

 

[xayraa33]

I could be wrong (not an expert on Leica trivia here) but I believe that the M4-P was given the "P" for "professional". I think it was produced at the same time as the M4-2; I owned both at the same time, long ago, and the M4-2 was definitely not the equal of the M4-P in terms of construction. A quick glance at both, side by side, would confirm that.
But that's not your question; my non-expert opinion is that the M4-P is the equal of any Leicas after the M2. Tough as nails, and, in good condition with a CLA, pretty much guaranteed to outlast you.
I have the utmost respect for Youxin Ye, and won't let anyone else service my Leicas. I haven't seen anecdotal evidence that would support his opinion in this case, however.
And yes, with the .72 finder, the 28 framelines are fiddly. I have the M6TTL with the .58 finder, and shooting the 28 is a pleasure on that camera. However, keep in mind that the framelines on Leicas after the M4 (all models) are rather inaccurate. The 35 framelines cover a good deal less than the actual film image, in particular. It always seems that there's something annoying about these otherwise superb cameras!
My vote, in short, would be for the M4-P. But only you can say for sure what will best meet your needs.

The only difference between an M4-2 and an M 4-P is the 28mm finder in the P that is it ..same camera. The very last M4-P cameras have zinc instead of brass for the body top plate and the VF front window is flush mounted, cheaper
to make and assemble.
BTW, I also own an earlier made Leica M4-P but prefer the M4-2 because I don't use a 28mm FL lens. In fact the early M4-2s like my 1978 model versus my 1980 model have the attributes as the M4...like non flare RF geometry, and same shiny chromed metal lens mount and release button as the M4.

 

[Pioneer]

The flare free viewfinder would be the deciding factor for me. I used to hate how my M6 viewfinder would flare at the slightest hint of encroaching light.

As already mentioned, the entire viewfinder pretty much gives you the view of the 28mm so the framelines are really unnecessary.

But, that is only my 2 cents.

 

[Retro-Grouch]

xayraa33, it's not my intention to trash-talk the M4-2! Any Leica is a tough, durable investment in long-term use. But I had the M4-2 and the M4-P both open to load at one time. That's when I noticed that the M4-2 had a stamped metal rear door, and the M4-P had a machined casting like other Leicas. In the real world, probably no difference, but definitely an indication of some corners being cut. I'd still take an M4-2 over pretty much any other rangefinder, in terms of quality and durability. I don't have much hair left, and don't have any to spare for splitting!

 

[xayraa33]

xayraa33, it's not my intention to trash-talk the M4-2! Any Leica is a tough, durable investment in long-term use. But I had the M4-2 and the M4-P both open to load at one time. That's when I noticed that the M4-2 had a stamped metal rear door, and the M4-P had a machined casting like other Leicas. In the real world, probably no difference, but definitely an indication of some corners being cut. I'd still take an M4-2 over pretty much any other rangefinder, in terms of quality and durability. I don't have much hair left, and don't have any to spare for splitting!

Look again, the M4-P is the later made M4-2 with a finder with line marks for a 28mm lens and and the letter P stamped on the front instead of the number two, the back doors are the same and can be interchanged.

The M4-P is a later factory introduction and made like the later made M4-2. The letter "P" on the front plate does not give the camera special "professional" guts...both cameras feel the same in my hands and both weigh the same and both feel the same to operate, if you rarely use the 28mm focal length lens, the M4-2 will do even better as the finder is less line marked and less cluttered and the view is nice and clean.

 

[farlymac]

Main difference between the M4 and M4-P is the way they are constructed. All the M's up to and including the M4 were designed to be readjusted when they went out of spec, whereas the M4-2 that was designed and built by the Canadian branch of the company was designed in a way that you just replaced the offending parts to get the camera back into compliance. Since it was a last ditch effort to convince the home office to continue the M line of cameras after the disaster with the M5, it probably had some shortcuts just to get it into production, while the follow-on M4-P got the Wetzlar touch.

I have no issues in using my M4-P which I got specifically because of the frame line set. I suppose if viewfinder flare became a problem I'd just send it in for an upgrade to the better prism set with the condenser lens, if they don't run out of them.

Others have pointed out the options you have, and they are okay. Just go over your likes and dislikes of the two you have, and see if another model would alleviate any of the issues, or if you are satisfied with keeping one of the two. Only you can see and feel what it is about your cameras that would make you keep one over the other, or trade them both in.

Myself, I'd keep them both, mainly because I like the quick loading and looks of the M4 in chrome.

PF

 

[Pál_K]

Keep both. If you’re selling to get more money, well, nobody needs to eat every day.

 

[Nitroplait]

If you have already asked a repair specialist the same question, and don't want to take his advice, what are the chances you will listen to what anyone here has to say?

 

[styvone]

If you have already asked a repair specialist the same question, and don't want to take his advice, what are the chances you will listen to what anyone here has to say?

Pretty high.

My post was intended to gather anecdotal opinions from real-life photographers who have owned either of the two for long periods of time - trying to get input from those I consider much more experienced than I am.

I have the utmost respect for Mr. Ye, but I also recognize that his opinion is his own. There are many Leicaphiles who would disagree with him.

Might sound crazy, but I like to hear everyone's point of views before formulating my own.

 

[Godfrey]

I've had all these cameras. They are all more the same than different, in use, presuming that they are in good shape.

My current film M is an early batch M4-2... I bought this model because it has *exactly* the same viewfinder as the M4—which flares less than the later M4-2 production batches and later bodies—and it can take a motorized winder, should I ever want one. And, oh yeah, it has a hot shoe so I can easily use an RF trigger with it on the rarely occasions I use a flash. I got mine from KEH for around $700 in 2012, listed as "bargain condition" ... and it needed the viewfinder/rangefinder cleaned, collimated, and calibrated; that was another $100 at a local shop. It works perfectly now. It is smooth*in operation and looks great, despite never being babied.

I don't regret one iota my choice in selling the M4, M2, M3, M4-P, M6TTL, or any of the others. This M4-2 is just as good a camera ... it's a device to make photographs with, not an objet'd'art.

If you use a 28mm lens and have the choice between the M4 and the M4-P, the sensible, logical one to keep is the M4-P since it supports the frame lines you need for that lens. If it feels rough or otherwise seems to need a service, have it serviced and then go make photographs.

G

 

[styvone]

I've had all these cameras. They are all more the same than different, in use, presuming that they are in good shape.

My current film M is an early batch M4-2... I bought this model because it has *exactly* the same viewfinder as the M4—which flares less than the later M4-2 production batches and later bodies—and it can take a motorized winder, should I ever want one. And, oh yeah, it has a hot shoe so I can easily use an RF trigger with it on the rarely occasions I use a flash. I got mine from KEH for around $700 in 2012, listed as "bargain condition" ... and it needed the viewfinder/rangefinder cleaned, collimated, and calibrated; that was another $100 at a local shop. It works perfectly now. It is smooth*in operation and looks great, despite never being babied.

I don't regret one iota my choice in selling the M4, M2, M3, M4-P, M6TTL, or any of the others. This M4-2 is just as good a camera ... it's a device to make photographs with, not an objet'd'art.

If you use a 28mm lens and have the choice between the M4 and the M4-P, the sensible, logical one to keep is the M4-P since it supports the frame lines you need for that lens. If it feels rough or otherwise seems to need a service, have it serviced and then go make photographs.

G

Godfrey, thank you for the input. I've decided I'm going with the M4-P, since I really want my Leica in black. I know it doesn't matter when you're out (stealth is overrated), but to my own personal tastes - black is better.

 

[maddoc]

I owned an M4-2 for 5 yrs, three M4-P over 9 yrs and two silver-chrome M4 very briefly before swapping the M4-2 and M4-P (and one M3) to finance a M4 black paint. As a user camera, both the M4-2 and M4-P win hands down with the more rugged steal-gears that can be used with rapid and motor winders and hot shoes. The M4 is a much more fragile camera due to age and complicated construction with too many adjustment points.

 

[nightlight]

I owned an M4-2 for 5 yrs, three M4-P over 9 yrs and two silver-chrome M4 very briefly before swapping the M4-2 and M4-P (and one M3) to finance a M4 black paint. As a user camera, both the M4-2 and M4-P win hands down with the more rugged steal-gears that can be used with rapid and motor winders and hot shoes. The M4 is a much more fragile camera due to age and complicated construction with too many adjustment points.

I agree with that. The M4-P you sold me had the smoothest film advance I've used.



To the original poster, I'm glad you've found one to keep. Happy shooting!

 

[xasthur]

I would sell both and buy a 0.58 body (M6TTL, M7, or MP).

I would do this for a .58 MP or a .72 MP. Hell or get a M-A if you don't care about a meter.