literiter
Well-known
I have investigated the changing of my Super Ikonta C's bellows and yes it will be an issue. I think removing leather and drilling out rivets. I'm only thinking this because I'ver not tried it. However I have taken a wretched old Moskva 2 apart by doing this, and did free the old bellows.FallisPhoto said:
I don't wanna think about Super Ikonta B bellows replacement.
The Moskva 5, is interesting in that I've just removed a few screws and there you are.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I'm not looking at my Super Ikonta right now, but I have an Ikonta handy that needs new bellows, and I've ordered a set of replacement bellows that I think will fit from a guy on Ebay. http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm (hard to beat 3 for $10) Looks like a part of the body is folded down over the bellows -- two long strips of metal. I think what I am going to do is grind most of them off, leaving two or three tabs on each side. There is no way I am going to be able to pry those long strips up without the whole of both sides of the camera looking like they've been chewed on, but I can manage a few tabs, and I won't have to take the whole thing apart.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Almost forgot to say, but the Moskva 5 has a lot more in common with Agfa cameras than the Moskva 2 does. Before buying mine, I read that the Moskva 2 cameras were actually assembled mostly from Zeiss parts, seized under Russia's War Reparations Act. Except for that top plate, it pretty much IS a Zeiss, while the Moskva 5 is purely Russian (and that's why I chose the 2 over the 5). Problem is, the person who wrote the article I read failed to mention that the people putting it together apparently couldn't find their collective asses using both hands and a flashlight. Mine had a rangefinder that was way out of vertical alignment and it took me a couple of days to realign the prisms in the rangefinder arm. I didn't even want to look at the thing for about two weeks afterward, so it was at least that long before I got around to fixing the other problems. Fortunately, mine has a good bellows, because if I'd had to do that on top of the rangefinder alignment, I'd probably have just tossed it.
literiter
Well-known
I tried prying the two strips of metal that you speak of and did make a mess of everything. Fortunately this was many years ago and was a poor old Kodak Vigilant. It did, however, show me that there was a better way, not a lot easier but a bit better.
The way that the old Moskva 2 worked was by removing the two pieces of leather, one on each side of the camera, over the film supply and take up spools. I did this by soaking the leather carefully with mildly soapy water for about 2 hours. Small piece of wet cloth, laid on the leather. Eventually it comes off, patiently scraping with a small knife. Try not to damage the leather. It can go back on by glueing it with a Non waterproof (so it comes off again) glue. Maybe shellac works too.
On each side, then, small rivets are exposed. Drill them out, the whole camera just sort of wiggles apart after that. I think (I haven't gotten there yet) I can replace the rivets later with small brass screws, countersunk from the top, to be covered with the leather. Small nuts will hold the #2 brass machine screws inside the spool areas. Paint them flat black.
I have considered repainting he whole camera after removing the leather. Probably with using epoxy paint. Don't know though.
Buying Moskvas is a new form of "Russian Roulette". Some good, some terrible.
Coincidentally I purchased three bellows from the same guy a while ago. Haven't tried them yet but one day.
The way that the old Moskva 2 worked was by removing the two pieces of leather, one on each side of the camera, over the film supply and take up spools. I did this by soaking the leather carefully with mildly soapy water for about 2 hours. Small piece of wet cloth, laid on the leather. Eventually it comes off, patiently scraping with a small knife. Try not to damage the leather. It can go back on by glueing it with a Non waterproof (so it comes off again) glue. Maybe shellac works too.
On each side, then, small rivets are exposed. Drill them out, the whole camera just sort of wiggles apart after that. I think (I haven't gotten there yet) I can replace the rivets later with small brass screws, countersunk from the top, to be covered with the leather. Small nuts will hold the #2 brass machine screws inside the spool areas. Paint them flat black.
I have considered repainting he whole camera after removing the leather. Probably with using epoxy paint. Don't know though.
Buying Moskvas is a new form of "Russian Roulette". Some good, some terrible.
Coincidentally I purchased three bellows from the same guy a while ago. Haven't tried them yet but one day.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I've got a whole suitcase full of thin black kidskin leather in a closet, so I'm not worried about preserving the old leather (even mint, a Moskva 2 isn't really worth much to speak of). In fact, replacing a Moskva 2's embossed black cardboard with real leather would probably increase its value. Good tip about the rivets though, and I may do that, now that I've recovered from that vertical rangefinder alignment.
Incidentally, this guy sells kidskin (goat) leather that works very well indeed for camera covers, and this is where I get mine: http://stores.ebay.com/Fashion-Leather-International_Special-Price-Skins_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ10QQftidZ2QQpZ2QQtZkm Just be sure to get the smaller pieces that are .3mm to .4mm thick instead of the larger pieces -- they'd be nice to have, but are just too thick. The price is certainly right too: http://cgi.ebay.com/GOAT-SKIN-Hide-Skin-Leather-Goatskin-BLACK-c_W0QQitemZ270164527620QQihZ017QQcategoryZ83936QQcmdZViewItem A place like Camera Leather would probably charge $40 for that.
The Moskvas tend to be either really good or really bad, with not a whole lot in the middle. Most of the 2s tend to be pretty bad, so I guess I got lucky for a change.
Incidentally, this guy sells kidskin (goat) leather that works very well indeed for camera covers, and this is where I get mine: http://stores.ebay.com/Fashion-Leather-International_Special-Price-Skins_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ10QQftidZ2QQpZ2QQtZkm Just be sure to get the smaller pieces that are .3mm to .4mm thick instead of the larger pieces -- they'd be nice to have, but are just too thick. The price is certainly right too: http://cgi.ebay.com/GOAT-SKIN-Hide-Skin-Leather-Goatskin-BLACK-c_W0QQitemZ270164527620QQihZ017QQcategoryZ83936QQcmdZViewItem A place like Camera Leather would probably charge $40 for that.
The Moskvas tend to be either really good or really bad, with not a whole lot in the middle. Most of the 2s tend to be pretty bad, so I guess I got lucky for a change.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Incidentally, the two Retinas, the Super Baldina and the Welti in the photos above have new leather covers. I got them cheap on ebay because their covers were pretty much falling apart.
literiter
Well-known
FallisPhoto said:
Ahh Ha! I will try these guys.
I've had to get, the little I have, from Tandy leather. I have a nice piece from them that is black with a reddish tone to it. As well I have two pieces of material from "Micro Tools" one is a piece of leather that has is a match for the Ikontas and another piece that is synthetic with a sticky backing.
ikoblitz
Newbie
FallisPhoto said:
I think it's more because Agfa used crap materials on their bellows--some kind of cheap vinyl garbage. Everyone else used leather, as far as I can tell. I have hundreds of old folders and only two have had any bellows damage. One is an old Ensign Autorange 220, which, apparently, someone poked a hole in. The other is an Ansco Special "R" (Agfa Isolette III) and it's just a crumbly, crackly mess. Jurgen Kreckel has basically the same thing to say on his site, and he replaces them with leather bellows.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
ikoblitz said:
Actually, almost nobody has used leather for bellows since sometime shortly after 1900. The bellows of pretty much any camera made since the old Ansco Vest Pocket cameras is going to be made of leatherette, not leather. You just don't see that kind of craftsmanship anymore. I spent nearly two years trying to find a thin enough leather to replace the bellows on my Ansco Vest Pocket #4, and couldn't find it. The best I could get was "composite leather." That's ground up powdered leather that has been mixed with a binding agent, extruded in a thin sheet, and embossed with a leather seal grain pattern. About the thinnest commercially skivved leather (leather that has been cut thin with a skivving knife) that's available these days is 0.3mm, which is great for coverings, but is about twice as thick as you'd need for bellows. To get the thin leather you'd need for bellows requires the services of a real craftsman and would cost you about four times what you'd pay for a normal leatherette bellows.
That said, there is leatherette and there is leatherette. Not all of them are created equal and Agfa's pretty much sscraped the bottom of the barrel. It had more in common with cheap plastic electrician's tape than with the good stuff other people were using.
THAT said, I like Agfa/Ansco cameras. I just avoid the ones with Agnar lenses and I always swap out the bellows. The Agnars, the Agfa/Ansco bellows and the grease they used are pretty much their only weak points. They made it very easy to swap bellows and once you've done that and learned how to get the old grease out, they're usually first class shooters. Incidentally, lately I've been getting my 6x6 bellows from old Kodak 66 cameras I buy from european sellers on ebay. It's a pain getting them out intact, but it can be done, with care, and $15 beats $50 every time.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
The stuff from Micro tools is nice, but the last time I bought leather from Tandy, years ago, when they still had stores, the thinnest they had in the store was a calfskin square that was about .6mm thick -- good for gloves, wallets and such, but too thick for most camera coverings. You really do want about .3mm or .4mm to do a good job. I think that either cordovan kidskin or levantine baby lambskin (if you want a coarser texture) works best for matching the thickness and texture of the leatherettes used on most cameras. Of those two, untreated, the kidskin is much more wear resistant. If you use a good sealer though, they'll both wear well; the sealer gives it a more high-gloss effect though.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
ikoblitz said:
Forgot to mention that Jurgen rarely uses leather for bellows. He makes his own, and the stuff he uses is a vinyl-like material somewhat like blackout curtain material.
literiter
Well-known
I had read somewhere that you could get some interesting leather from bookbinding suppliers for book covers. Apparently it is thin, flat, flawless and comes in a variety of colors and materials other than leather. I have had no luck sourcing from these people as yet.
At any rate I've only had to do small repairs not a complete recovering job to date. I will do someting one day to an old Retina II, and a Moskva 4.
I will try getting a new bellows for a Super Ikonta "C" from an outfit in England (whos name escapes me at the moment) that will make a custom bellows.
At any rate I've only had to do small repairs not a complete recovering job to date. I will do someting one day to an old Retina II, and a Moskva 4.
I will try getting a new bellows for a Super Ikonta "C" from an outfit in England (whos name escapes me at the moment) that will make a custom bellows.
oftheherd
Veteran
literiter said:
literiter
Well-known
Quote - oftheherd
"But in general, I like Weltas. I think they were a very good German line of cameras that just never got the recognition they deserved. "
Yes, I agree. What I've seen has always been good. I believe there was something about the age that has produced such great stuff. The few cameras I have from that era (1930s to 1950s?) are beautifully made instuments. Not necessarily easy to use but so what.
My take on the Welti is one of pleasant suprise. I've had one, with a 3.5 Tessar, now for a month and have taken two rolls with it. One color and one B&W. This is a great little camera. Images are excellent. Sharp and contrasty.
"But in general, I like Weltas. I think they were a very good German line of cameras that just never got the recognition they deserved. "
Yes, I agree. What I've seen has always been good. I believe there was something about the age that has produced such great stuff. The few cameras I have from that era (1930s to 1950s?) are beautifully made instuments. Not necessarily easy to use but so what.
My take on the Welti is one of pleasant suprise. I've had one, with a 3.5 Tessar, now for a month and have taken two rolls with it. One color and one B&W. This is a great little camera. Images are excellent. Sharp and contrasty.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
I've done that (couldn't find anything in this country, but found one in England). It was still a good bit more expensive than the guy on ebay. Yes, they have leather though, and a very good deal of variety, and much of it is thin enough. Some of their leatherette is good for bellows too. Leather for bellows pretty much has to be hand-skivved though.
If you're going to get a bellows made (instead of making it yourself), there is a guy in Hawaii who makes good bellows at just a little more than half the price of that outfit in England. http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mkapono/bellows.htm
FallisPhoto
Veteran
"FallisPhoto - Have you had a chance to use your Welti yet? I used one I inherited from my father for several years, including 4 years in Vietnam. Some time after it got destroyed in a housefire, I was happy to get one on ebay. I like it, but I don't think the lens is as good as the one I got from my father. I have a Weltini that needs fixing, and just purchased another one that is supposed to be in working order. I hope so but won't know for sure until I get it of course.
But in general, I like Weltas. I think they were a very good German line of cameras that just never got the recognition they deserved."
I shot a roll with it a couple of days ago, but I haven't developed the film yet. I'm pretty confident that they will come out well though, since there is nothing obviously wrong with the lens and the shutter was working perfectly. Weltis and Weltinas were VERY nice top-end folding cameras, easily as good as their main competition (the Retinas, Vito IIs and Karats). They would pretty much have to be since they were all very well constructed and they all had pretty much the same lenses. Then, of course, the Weltax was a very nice camera indeed. I can't vouch personally for any of the other Welta models, but I doubt they were any less good.
But in general, I like Weltas. I think they were a very good German line of cameras that just never got the recognition they deserved."
I shot a roll with it a couple of days ago, but I haven't developed the film yet. I'm pretty confident that they will come out well though, since there is nothing obviously wrong with the lens and the shutter was working perfectly. Weltis and Weltinas were VERY nice top-end folding cameras, easily as good as their main competition (the Retinas, Vito IIs and Karats). They would pretty much have to be since they were all very well constructed and they all had pretty much the same lenses. Then, of course, the Weltax was a very nice camera indeed. I can't vouch personally for any of the other Welta models, but I doubt they were any less good.
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literiter
Well-known
Bigger than my Welti.
Bigger than my Welti.
Here is a picture of my Super Ikonta B, during yesterday's outing to the woods. The nice thing about this stuff is they pack smaller and lighter than many other 6x6s, like say, the Hasselblad etc.
When received, the leather was a little tattered on this 50+ year old camera, but the lens, bellows and shutter required minimum effort to get in order. The film advance mechanism required dissasembly and removal of old grease and relubrication. I have a few more "Bs" and this seems to be the case with all of them.
Bigger than my Welti.
Here is a picture of my Super Ikonta B, during yesterday's outing to the woods. The nice thing about this stuff is they pack smaller and lighter than many other 6x6s, like say, the Hasselblad etc.
When received, the leather was a little tattered on this 50+ year old camera, but the lens, bellows and shutter required minimum effort to get in order. The film advance mechanism required dissasembly and removal of old grease and relubrication. I have a few more "Bs" and this seems to be the case with all of them.
Attachments
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
I tend to prefer Agfa Isolette IIIs and Ansco Speedex Special Rs (already posted a photo of an Ansco, and they are pretty much identical). The leatherette body covering is usually in pretty good shape, but the bellows always needs replacing and I've never seen one where the rangefinder and focus wasn't frozen by old solidified grease. That is easy enough to fix though, and once done, they are at least as good as any other fixed lens medium format camera out there, and they're better than most.
Of course you can say that about Zeiss too, but I just don't like that swing arm arrangement. I mean it works, and works pretty well, but it's delicate and I get most of my stuff on ebay. Buying a Zeiss (or a Moskva) there is pretty much going to be a crap shoot, mostly because of that swing arm. With an Agfa or an Ansco, I have a pretty good idea what's going to be wrong with it when I get it, and I know how to fix it. I've heard that a loose or otherwise damaged swing arm on a Zeiss or a Moskva makes it unrepairable though, and I NEVER want to do another vertical rangefinder alignment on one.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
BTW, your camera looks good.
literiter
Well-known
FallisPhoto said:
I think I will begin looking for a nice Ansco or Agfa one day when I have a little time to spend on them. It seems like a great idea. I haven't many on the auction site lately however.
The Super Ikonta B, has a fixed arm, the "C" does have the same arm as the dreaded Moskva. (I'm actually very fond of the Moskva) I have had good luck with the C and the Moskva 2,4,and 5 rangefinders to date, the B however is a little more tricky but doable.
I received a Super Ikonta C from a lady who couldn't figure out how to close it. She sent it to me stuffed in a little box, along with the case. It arrived intact. Very nice camera.
Then I found a great little Weltini it was well packed, but arrived about 1/2 inch thinner. ( I was very angry)
Shipping can be a real issue, I'm afraid.