FallisPhoto
Veteran
I was looking at the photos of your B and couldn't figure out if that prism section was fixed or if the whole thing rotated into position. If it's fixed, that would be a HUGE improvement. On ebay, I've seen three Ansco Speedex Special Rs this month and about the same number of Agfa Isolette IIIs, I bid on all of them, but only got one (one of the Anscos). I like my Super Ikonta too, and I like my Moskva, but it just seemed like taking too much of a risk to get one on ebay, where I can't get hold of that arm and see if it wiggles. If the B's arm is fixed, I'll ceratinly start looking for a deal on one of those though.
Biggest problem with the 6x6 Agfas/Anscos is finding a bellows that will fit. Lately, I've been buying Kodak 66 cameras from Europe (apparently they sold a lot more of them there than they did here). The bellows from them were pretty robust, and they are the right size. Getting them out intact can be a pain, but it's worth it, since the Kodak runs about $10 and most places that sell NEW isolette bellows will charge about $80. I know of one guy in Hawaii who makes them for $45, and -- until recently -- I had a friend in Germany who could get "new old stock" 6x6 zeiss bellows for $3 each (unfortunately, I and my friends are getting old and he died a couple of years back). The bellows from junked 6x6 Nettars will work too, but are even harder to get out in one piece.
Biggest problem with the 6x6 Agfas/Anscos is finding a bellows that will fit. Lately, I've been buying Kodak 66 cameras from Europe (apparently they sold a lot more of them there than they did here). The bellows from them were pretty robust, and they are the right size. Getting them out intact can be a pain, but it's worth it, since the Kodak runs about $10 and most places that sell NEW isolette bellows will charge about $80. I know of one guy in Hawaii who makes them for $45, and -- until recently -- I had a friend in Germany who could get "new old stock" 6x6 zeiss bellows for $3 each (unfortunately, I and my friends are getting old and he died a couple of years back). The bellows from junked 6x6 Nettars will work too, but are even harder to get out in one piece.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
Well, you've talked me into it. I'm doing it to a Nettar (one that has some misfolds in the bellows) for practice though, before I get into this with one of my Ikontas or my Super Ikonta. I got the "leatherette" off last night and decided that real leather would be a LOT better than the painted fabric (apparently with a leather texture molded into the paint) that Zeiss used for the body coverings, so I didn't worry about preserving it -- just ripped it off. I see the two rivets you mentioned and I don't see much in the way of a problem there. I assume that once I get those out, that flange that holds down the back of the bellows that I was worried about will just come out with the rest of the inside of the body, presumably with the metal "film rail"/frame insert piece in place? If so, this should allow me relatively unrestricted access to the back of the bellows. All I need to do now is go to the hardware store and find four small bolts that I can countersink, with nuts, and I'm in business. I already have half a dozen spare bellows that I think will fit it.
literiter
Well-known
Now you're into it! Let us know how it works out.
I am going to take that poor old Moskva and redo the paint, bellows and leather if I can. Will be an interesting exercise.
I am going to take that poor old Moskva and redo the paint, bellows and leather if I can. Will be an interesting exercise.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
Well, I've been to three different hardware stores here and none carry miniature machine screws. I'm going to check out the last hardware store today, and a hobby shop, and if they don't have them I think I'm going to have to order them online.
Hmmm, I wonder if I could just GLUE it back together? Yeah, I know, but I'm getting both desperate and disgusted. The smallest machine screws I've found so far have heads the size of pencil erasers. The beveled part of the HEAD is almost as long as the whole screw should be. I'm starting to think about just using rivets again.
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literiter
Well-known
Small flat head screws.
Small flat head screws.
Yeah, I've thought about glueing this stuff together, but then it won't come apart again easily. Small brass screws are available from "Small Parts Inc." Get #2, brass flat head screws, and nuts. This is a great company for weird stuff.
Then in Canada there is a woodworking tool company called "Lee Valley Tools" they have a great selection of brass screws, no nuts however.
I have taken the annealing out of small brass brads and used them as rivets in a pinch. They work very well.
Small flat head screws.
FallisPhoto said:
Yeah, I've thought about glueing this stuff together, but then it won't come apart again easily. Small brass screws are available from "Small Parts Inc." Get #2, brass flat head screws, and nuts. This is a great company for weird stuff.
Then in Canada there is a woodworking tool company called "Lee Valley Tools" they have a great selection of brass screws, no nuts however.
I have taken the annealing out of small brass brads and used them as rivets in a pinch. They work very well.
oftheherd
Veteran
Well my 2nd Weltini came in. It looks very nice. However, it fired about six times and then the shutter button failed to set off the shutter. There is a small metal peice under the right part of the lens housing (as you look at the camera) that apparently is pushed back by the lens housing as the camera is closed. For some reason, that is not allowing the shutter to fire.
Any suggestions? How does one get to the internals? These cameras seem to be such marvels of engineering, with so many parts, I am almost afraid to try taking things apart. Much less even being sure I can do so. This second one is a pretty thing for sure. Later today I will try to get a photo of it on the thread.
Any suggestions? How does one get to the internals? These cameras seem to be such marvels of engineering, with so many parts, I am almost afraid to try taking things apart. Much less even being sure I can do so. This second one is a pretty thing for sure. Later today I will try to get a photo of it on the thread.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
Well, I tried "Small Parts Inc." and I can't see how they stay in business. I think I'll try Radio Shack first, or if that fails, I'll use the brass brads as rivets idea. I absolutely refuse to pay nearly $10 postage for about an ounce of miniature screws and nuts.
I haven't found a good deal on a Super Ikonta B yet, but I did just win the bid for an Agfa Billy Record on ebay, with Apotar and a sticky Prontor II. A set of new bellows is waiting for it when it gets here -- along with a whole lot of Q-tips and lighter fluid, of course. Sticky shutters on Agfas/Anscos are no surprise. It's one of those art deco models, and it is one of the few that (according to the seller anyway) takes plain old 120 film. Every other art deco model I've seen took either PB20/620 or PB16/616 film
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Are you talking about that bit that presses against the shutter release when you push the shutter button? Does the shutter fire when you press directly on the shutter release (the lever the bit presses against)? If so, what has probably happened is that someone tried to trip the shutter without it being cocked and pushed too hard, bending it just enough that it occasionally doesn't quite have enough force to trip the shutter. If this is what happened, the solution is obvious: you need to bend it back into position. Padded needle nosed pliers are called for.
oftheherd
Veteran
FallisPhoto said:
I know what you are talking about, the Weltini on the left suffers from that along with other problems. I don't think you can see it but it is so badly bent that you would think it was purposely bent the way it is. Nor does the shutter even cock. The lever moves, but it doesn't cock.
However that I am talking about is to the right as you look at the camera, just under the square of the lens mount. As the shutter button is depressed, the linkage moves across beneath the lens mount. There is a levered peice of metal there. It may be that cocking the shutter is supposed to move it, I don't know. However, if I depress it, I can fire the shutter, so yes, the shutter will fire. the link to the photo is below (seems I can't get the hang of post an actual photo for some reason).
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=70369&ppuser=50
FallisPhoto
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Okay, for the one on the left, you are going to have to go into the shutter (take it apart) to find what's wrong. Could be rust, could be hardened lubricant, could be a broken spring. It's probably rust (that bubbled up paint on the inside of the door looks like water damage). There are lots of websites all over showing how to disassemble and fix a Compur shutter, so it shouldn't be a problem finding one. Just in case you have difficulty though, here's one of them:
http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-88.html
As for the one on the right, you'll need to shoot another photo, because I can't see what's wrong and I don't have a Weltini to look at. It sounds like you might have a bent/sprung linkage though. One thing to try first: Some of the Retinas have the same shutter the Weltas do. On them, the shutter won't fire unless you open the back of the camera and turn the capstan until it clicks (it is designed to do that as a form of double exposure prevention, and this means the camera won't work right without film in it). Try manually turning the capstan (the thing that has teeth that engage the perforations in the film) and see if it fires then.
Incidentally, this guy sells very thin kidskin leather that makes GREAT camera coverings, is cheap, and will match the leatherette you've got pretty closely: http://cgi.ebay.com/GOAT-SKIN-Hide-Skin-Leather-Goatskin-BLACK-c_W0QQitemZ270168620406QQihZ017QQcategoryZ83936QQcmdZViewItem Looks like the one on the left could use it for sure (not sure about the one on the right). If you can measure and cut leather, this will save you about $80 over having someone install a cover for you and about $40 over the price of a precut covering you install yourself.
Can't see the bellows in your photos, but if you need new ones, this guy sells inexpensive unused Kodak replacement bellows that will probably fit: http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm
You're probably going to have to sand and repaint the one on the left too. Micro tools sells a paint that will match pretty closely. Do the painting BEFORE you put the new leather covering and the bellows on. http://www.micro-tools.com/
oftheherd
Veteran
Thanks for the tips. Now I have some things to try.
literiter
Well-known
Two days ago I took a roll of pictures with my little Welti w/ the coated Tessar 3.5 lens. This is my third roll.
This was a photo excursion where I left all my other cameras at home. I just stuffed the little gem into one pocket, my Weston IV into the other and away I went. Didn't come back 'till all 36 were taken. I use a local lab for some of my stuff and they gave me my prints today...... 36 good exposures. All in focus. And it seems that the sights are not bad either.
I took action shots of our little dog playing, my wife sketching, and some trees and rocks etc.
I wouldn't think of boring the good people of this site with some really dumb pictures but this little camera is great in terms of contrast, sharpness and exposure. The work is predictable. How does it compare to another camera, say a Leica with Summicron 50mm? Well sorry, I didn't get that close.
A camera like this forces me to concentrate on working with the image rather than just snapping dozens of shots and hoping to get lucky (which I'm sometimes prone to do). It allows me (forces me) to become part of the process.
There are three steps before taking a picture with a camera like this:
1) push the frame release button.
2) wind the film
3) cock the shutter.
Then of course set the shutter speed, set the aperature, approximate the distance to the subject and set the lens focus.
This is a little different than my Nikon F3.
This was a photo excursion where I left all my other cameras at home. I just stuffed the little gem into one pocket, my Weston IV into the other and away I went. Didn't come back 'till all 36 were taken. I use a local lab for some of my stuff and they gave me my prints today...... 36 good exposures. All in focus. And it seems that the sights are not bad either.
I took action shots of our little dog playing, my wife sketching, and some trees and rocks etc.
I wouldn't think of boring the good people of this site with some really dumb pictures but this little camera is great in terms of contrast, sharpness and exposure. The work is predictable. How does it compare to another camera, say a Leica with Summicron 50mm? Well sorry, I didn't get that close.
A camera like this forces me to concentrate on working with the image rather than just snapping dozens of shots and hoping to get lucky (which I'm sometimes prone to do). It allows me (forces me) to become part of the process.
There are three steps before taking a picture with a camera like this:
1) push the frame release button.
2) wind the film
3) cock the shutter.
Then of course set the shutter speed, set the aperature, approximate the distance to the subject and set the lens focus.
This is a little different than my Nikon F3.
oftheherd
Veteran
Well, the trick of simulating the film being wound worked! How about that. In fact, too well. It worked on both, but the f/2 Weltini won't fire now that it is cocked. Arrrrh. At least the f/2.8 seems OK. I have looked closely at f/2's front two elements with a magnifyer and I think that camera will be a learning experience for repair. You wouldn't believe the amount of scratches and dirt. It looks like someone tried to clean the lens with sandpaper.
At least since the f/2.8 seems OK I will have to clean it a little (not with sand paper!) and run some film through it.
BTW - thanks for the links to lens work and leather coatings. I will check them out since I need some for one of my other Welta folders.
At least since the f/2.8 seems OK I will have to clean it a little (not with sand paper!) and run some film through it.
BTW - thanks for the links to lens work and leather coatings. I will check them out since I need some for one of my other Welta folders.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Will it fire if you trigger the shutter release directly (using the release on the front of the lens instead of the one on top of the camera)?
You're welcome to the links. That guy sells more goat hide than I will ever use. You might want to check out his BABY lamb leather too. It has a coarser texture, which will match some cameras better (F.E.D.s, for example). Don't get the whole skins though, even though you can sometimes get a great deal on some. The whole skins tend to be about .7mm thick, which is too much for most cameras (works okay on an Argus C-3 though). The smaller (one and two square foot) pieces he sells for about a buck are .3mm and .4mm thick, which is just right.
Rick Oleson (the guy whose site I liknked you to for the Compur shutter) is pretty much the best there is right now at camera repair, having outlived most of the people who were better, and who don't speciallize in one or two types of camera. I figure there is less chance his site will steer you wrong than would be the case with anyone else.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
literiter said:
Now you need to get one with a Xenon, and make those Leicas really WORK to maintain their lead.
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oftheherd
Veteran
FallisPhoto said:
The f/2 Weltini fired sometime on its own. It will not fire by triggering the shutter release on the lens housing. It is bent quite badly and appears to be jammed against the stop. That is going to require some disassymbly I think, before it can be corrected. Another project when I can get to it. Too many right now.
I hope to test the f/2.8 this weekend while on a short trip. Its rangefinder seems to be accurate, and the film backing plate seems OK, although I might try to smooth it with some leather or croakus cloth as it has a lot of lines in it. All other functions seem OK...
Except, there are two controls on the back of the top plate. One on the left is a lever that is in a downward position and will rotate counter clockwise just past verticle. The other is about the middle and is quite small, and in a recess where it will slide. When I slide it, I can hear something click. Can you tell me what these two controls are?
Thanks for all your help.
oftheherd
Veteran
literiter said:
Those are kind of a breath of fresh air to use aren't they? They are not really difficult or slow per se, but just get you to thinking about the whole business of getting the photograph. You put it into words well.
literiter
Well-known
FallisPhoto said:
These things seem to be a bit scarce, right now. I do keep looking. I found another on the auction site with the 2.9 Trioplan lens and a Vebur shutter. I think this wouldn't be too bad a setup but since I have a Xenon f2 lens from a defuct Retina I thought I'd try a retrofit. The lens turns out to be too deep and the camera won't close. I need a door from a Weltini (probably) to fit this lens. I think I'll not bother.
oftheherd
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Well, two mysteries solved. The lever is what is used to release the shaft that goes into the film cartridge. The smaller one near the middle is what resets the film counter. Those things were obvious until I tried loading it with film. I hope to finish the roll tomorrow and get it developed sometime during the coming week. Then I'll see how the little beatie works.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. My computer has had a virus. In fact it seems to have had a bunch of them. After installing Norton 2008 and Stopzilla though, it seems to have cleared the problems up. Anyway, I thought that this might answer most of your questions about what the various buttons and levers do: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/weltini_ii/weltini_ii.htm