I just bought a Welti on the bay...

[oftheherd]

Thanks for the link. I think I had figured most of it out just by starting to use it. I have a roll in now to try. When I get the chance to finish it and develop it I will show some of the results. Assuming they are worth showing.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Thanks for the link. I think I had figured most of it out just by starting to use it. I have a roll in now to try. When I get the chance to finish it and develop it I will show some of the results. Assuming they are worth showing.

Might be worth showing even if something is wrong. The photos can be used to diagnose several problems.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Yeah, I've thought about glueing this stuff together, but then it won't come apart again easily. Small brass screws are available from "Small Parts Inc." Get #2, brass flat head screws, and nuts. This is a great company for weird stuff.
Then in Canada there is a woodworking tool company called "Lee Valley Tools" they have a great selection of brass screws, no nuts however.
I have taken the annealing out of small brass brads and used them as rivets in a pinch. They work very well.

Well, there's no way I'm going to pay $10 + another $10 postage for the four miniature nuts and bolts I need, but I think I have found the solution. There is a guy on ebay selling alloy rivets that are used for assembling "Hot Wheels" toy cars. These have a 1/8 inch diameter head and a 1/16 inch diameter shaft that is 1/8 inch long. Should be about right, and only costs $3.50 for 50 of them. This means I can do up about a dozen 6x9 folders with new bellows for right around $6 each, and that's counting the cost of the bellows and the leather.

 

[FallisPhoto]

These things seem to be a bit scarce, right now. I do keep looking. I found another on the auction site with the 2.9 Trioplan lens and a Vebur shutter. I think this wouldn't be too bad a setup but since I have a Xenon f2 lens from a defuct Retina I thought I'd try a retrofit. The lens turns out to be too deep and the camera won't close. I need a door from a Weltini (probably) to fit this lens. I think I'll not bother.

Over the last ten years, I have bought three cameras with Trioplan lenses (Baldas, mostly). All three of them arrived here missing their rear lens elements. In one case, I bought a camera solely to harvest it's rear element. The camera was missing one part -- guess what it was. I'm starting to think there may be a vast worldwide consipiracy to keep me from ever getting a functional Trioplan.

 

[literiter]

Over the last ten years, I have bought three cameras with Trioplan lenses (Baldas, mostly). All three of them arrived here missing their rear lens elements. In one case, I bought a camera solely to harvest it's rear element. The camera was missing one part -- guess what it was. I'm starting to think there may be a vast worldwide consipiracy to keep me from ever getting a functional Trioplan.

Egad! I better go check!!

 

[FallisPhoto]

Egad! I better go check!!

I doubt that your luck will run as bad as mine did in that regard. There are two things that have never worked out for me though. I have bad luck with Trioplans and with Minolta Hi-Matics. I've never had a Hi-Matic that worked (well, a Minolta that worked for more than a week before jamming solid anyway), and I've bought several over the years. That's a shame, since I would like to get a good Hi-matic 7s. My problem with them seems to be related to the self-timer. I can never resist trying it to see if it works; it never does, and that has always locked everything up. Minolta's Hi-Matics very definitely have the very most difficult self timers to work on of any camera I know of. You have to completely disassemble the lens and shutter to get at it, and the cameras are always full of shims that fall out and won't go back, if you can figure out where they came from in the first place.

 

[literiter]

Minolta's Hi-Matics very definitely have the very most difficult self timers to work on of any camera I know of. You have to completely disassemble the lens and shutter to get at it, and the cameras are always full of shims that fall out and won't go back, if you can figure out where they came from in the first place.

I have never really had a modern 35mm camera really apart. (modern for me means after 1960) I have done a little work on a Nikon F2 frame counter (successfully), and a F2 Dp-1 finder (good grief!) as well I've rummaged around a bit in my old Pentax SP1000. I've done work on my Leica F2 and M4-P. But never really apart.

Now I've had my nice old Weltini apart and practically polished all the pieces. My Welti the same. But these are pretty old. There is something about newer 35mm cameras that advises caution in me. I don't have the tools to deal with the precision required.

Crusty old 120 cameras is a different story. I've done a few and really enjoy old 120 rangefinder folders. I think the right person could deal with most problems with a swiss army knife.

Self timers seem to be an issue anyway with lens in shutter cameras. I have had a few, great big old, compur shutters from Zeiss cameras give me all sorts of timer issues. I took one apart again finally, removed the timer, cleaned it in some really horrible, toxic degreasing solution and relubricated with moebus oil. Yep it still works but so what.

I can understand the attraction to the Hi Matic cameras. There is a Canon QL19 on the premises that has a timer issue, but the good news is: The lever is quite stuck, I can't engage it. Can't engage, can't jamb, I hope.

 

[FallisPhoto]

I have never really had a modern 35mm camera really apart. (modern for me means after 1960) I have done a little work on a Nikon F2 frame counter (successfully), and a F2 Dp-1 finder (good grief!) as well I've rummaged around a bit in my old Pentax SP1000. I've done work on my Leica F2 and M4-P. But never really apart.

Now I've had my nice old Weltini apart and practically polished all the pieces. My Welti the same. But these are pretty old. There is something about newer 35mm cameras that advises caution in me. I don't have the tools to deal with the precision required.

Crusty old 120 cameras is a different story. I've done a few and really enjoy old 120 rangefinder folders. I think the right person could deal with most problems with a swiss army knife.

Self timers seem to be an issue anyway with lens in shutter cameras. I have had a few, great big old, compur shutters from Zeiss cameras give me all sorts of timer issues. I took one apart again finally, removed the timer, cleaned it in some really horrible, toxic degreasing solution and relubricated with moebus oil. Yep it still works but so what.

I can understand the attraction to the Hi Matic cameras. There is a Canon QL19 on the premises that has a timer issue, but the good news is: The lever is quite stuck, I can't engage it. Can't engage, can't jamb, I hope.

I don't like modern cameras either (mostly because I don't like them made of plastic or resin) and I don't like autofocus and autoexposure. The Hi-Matics were made in the early 70s, so that is not an issue. Other than one digital camera I use for posting photos of GOOD cameras on the internet, my most modern camera was made in 1978 (a Pentax K-1000). My favorites are the old folders (Retinas, Isolettes, Bessas, Super Ikontas, Super Baldinas and so on). You can get them with lenses that are about as good as you'll find anywhere, and they are simple and not needlessly complicated. They have exactly what you need and nothing you don't. I don't know about working on one with a swiss army knife, but fixing problems on one is definitely a lot easier than working on, say a Hasselblad H2D (I hate working on Hasselblads -- many of the parts are custom fitted). Only real difficulty is that damned green grease so many German cameras used. I never have worked out how to get that stuff to dissolve and usually wind up just forcing the part out. I've tried camp gas, lighter fluid, Liquid Wrench, and so on without much success.

 

[literiter]

and I don't like autofocus and autoexposure. .

Ah yes, I guess I've always had a problem with authority as well. I certainly don't like something like a camera telling me what to do.

I have worked on my Hasselblad SWC with some success but haven't done anything to my 501CM (don't need to yet). I like the simpler mechanics. I will likely never work on the digital stuff.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Ah yes, I guess I've always had a problem with authority as well. I certainly don't like something like a camera telling me what to do.

I have worked on my Hasselblad SWC with some success but haven't done anything to my 501CM (don't need to yet). I like the simpler mechanics. I will likely never work on the digital stuff.

I probably wouldn't mind it so much if the camera ever got it right, but they never do. Maybe I'm too picky.

 

[FallisPhoto]

I tried prying the two strips of metal that you speak of and did make a mess of everything. Fortunately this was many years ago and was a poor old Kodak Vigilant. It did, however, show me that there was a better way, not a lot easier but a bit better.

The way that the old Moskva 2 worked was by removing the two pieces of leather, one on each side of the camera, over the film supply and take up spools. I did this by soaking the leather carefully with mildly soapy water for about 2 hours. Small piece of wet cloth, laid on the leather. Eventually it comes off, patiently scraping with a small knife. Try not to damage the leather. It can go back on by glueing it with a Non waterproof (so it comes off again) glue. Maybe shellac works too.

On each side, then, small rivets are exposed. Drill them out, the whole camera just sort of wiggles apart after that. I think (I haven't gotten there yet) I can replace the rivets later with small brass screws, countersunk from the top, to be covered with the leather. Small nuts will hold the #2 brass machine screws inside the spool areas. Paint them flat black.

I have considered repainting he whole camera after removing the leather. Probably with using epoxy paint. Don't know though.

Buying Moskvas is a new form of "Russian Roulette". Some good, some terrible.

Coincidentally I purchased three bellows from the same guy a while ago. Haven't tried them yet but one day.

BTW, should have done this earlier, but forgot: Here's my Moskva 2.

 

[literiter]

Moskva or Super Ikonta.

Moskva or Super Ikonta.

BTW, should have done this earlier, but forgot: Here's my Moskva 2.

This is a very nice camera. It looks pretty good, has it been restored?


I've got a M4, M5 and a M2 (Moskva 4 etc. of course.) I think these cameras are quite adequate in many ways. My Moskva 5 has given me a few good rolls of black and white.

The lens on these things is a concern because I've heard some pretty bad things about them but mine seem OK. I really like the shutters and they have cleaned up very well.

I'll post a pic of mine soon.

 

[FallisPhoto]

This is a very nice camera. It looks pretty good, has it been restored?


I've got a M4, M5 and a M2 (Moskva 4 etc. of course.) I think these cameras are quite adequate in many ways. My Moskva 5 has given me a few good rolls of black and white.

The lens on these things is a concern because I've heard some pretty bad things about them but mine seem OK. I really like the shutters and they have cleaned up very well.

I'll post a pic of mine soon.

Yes, it has been restored, at least to the extent that I can do it (new vinyl leatherette, stripped from a sketchbook cover, painted, scraped down to brass in a few areas, sanded and polished to the point of death, and etcetera).

This is the one that I was talking about, earlier in this thread, when I said that the vertical alignment of the rangefinder prisms (in that swing arm above and to the left of the lens) was sheer hell. If you take it apart, you'll find two prisms, surrounded by toothed gears. The gears have very fine teeth and you have to move them both, one tooth at a time, until you hit on the right combination, so the double images track side to side and not diagonally. If you somehow survive this without going insane, then you calibrate it horizontally, but that part is easy. Took three days of trial and error (taking it apart, moving a gear one tooth, putting it back togetehr and trying it, over and over) to get it right. After doing that, I didn't even want to look at it for about four months. I think it's working fine now though, because it is pretty much on track with measured distances. I finally took it out for a shoot a few weeks ago. I'll see how the film comes out when I finish the roll.

Most of the Moskva 2s (and all of the Moskva 1s) were made from seized Zeiss parts, but were apparently assembled by people who couldn't find their own asses with both hands and a flashlight -- most need a lot of work. By the time they had gotten around to making the Moskva 5s though, they had finally gotten their ducks in a row, even if it is a purely Soviet construction (the 5s are a LOT better put together than the 2s).

You're right about the lenses. Quality control was, to say the least, highly variable. The Industars seemed to have better quality control, such as it was, than the Jupiters though. I've heard that if you want a good Jupiter, you should buy four of them, because the other three will be horrible. If you do happen to get a good one though, they tend to be VERY good. I played it safe though and mine has an Industar. I'll find out how good it is when I develop the film. I know I have a good body, but I don't know about the lens yet.

 

[literiter]

Yes, it has been restored, at least to the extent that I can do it (new vinyl leatherette, stripped from a sketchbook cover, painted, scraped down to brass in a few areas, sanded and polished to the point of death, and etcetera).

This is the one that I was talking about, earlier in this thread, when I said that the vertical alignment of the rangefinder prisms (in that swing arm above and to the left of the lens) was sheer hell. If you take it apart, you'll find two prisms, surrounded by toothed gears. The gears have very fine teeth and you have to move them both, one tooth at a time, until you hit on the right combination, so the double images track side to side and not diagonally. If you somehow survive this without going insane, then you calibrate it horizontally, but that part is easy. Took three days of trial and error (taking it apart, moving a gear one tooth, putting it back togetehr and trying it, over and over) to get it right. After doing that, I didn't even want to look at it for about four months. I think it's working fine now though, because it is pretty much on track with measured distances. I finally took it out for a shoot a few weeks ago. I'll see how the film comes out when I finish the roll.

Most of the Moskva 2s (and all of the Moskva 1s) were made from seized Zeiss parts, but were apparently assembled by people who couldn't find their own asses with both hands and a flashlight -- most need a lot of work. By the time they had gotten around to making the Moskva 5s though, they had finally gotten their ducks in a row, even if it is a purely Soviet construction (the 5s are a LOT better put together than the 2s).

You're right about the lenses. Quality control was, to say the least, highly variable. The Industars seemed to have better quality control, such as it was, than the Jupiters though. I've heard that if you want a good Jupiter, you should buy four of them, because the other three will be horrible. If you do happen to get a good one though, they tend to be VERY good. I played it safe though and mine has an Industar. I'll find out how good it is when I develop the film. I know I have a good body, but I don't know about the lens yet.

I've not had the arm apart (lobster eye?) which I'm now grateful for. I have aligned the focus which is easy if too much else hasn't been disturbed. I'm not sure how well the focus tracks on the Moskvas or the Super Ikontas, I'll have to do a little test. I'll bet it isn't too good.

The shutters on my cameras are quite good. Two of the lenses look like they were cleaned improperly as the coating has tiny scratches but overall I have hopes that restoring cameras like this is worth it.

I've got the mechanical stuff sorted out, the leather replacement is no issue but the paint is gonna be a drag. All the paint I've applied, no matter if I've sanded the metal, used a primer, haven't used a primer, used enamel or laquer... it can be scraped off with my finger nail. I've even left one set for over a year... still comes off.

I will try to get some epoxy paint in matte from a hobby supplier and try that. It's gonna cost however. $60.00 for the set up.

I've also considered black chrome, which is electroplated on. This may be really nice if it works.

You have painted stuff, right?

 

[literiter]

Oh yes, just to add a note:

I painted the top of a particularly ratty looking Moskva 5 with black wrinkle paint. I consider this a success. It make the camera look very nice.

 

[FallisPhoto]

I've not had the arm apart (lobster eye?) which I'm now grateful for. I have aligned the focus which is easy if too much else hasn't been disturbed. I'm not sure how well the focus tracks on the Moskvas or the Super Ikontas, I'll have to do a little test. I'll bet it isn't too good.

The shutters on my cameras are quite good. Two of the lenses look like they were cleaned improperly as the coating has tiny scratches but overall I have hopes that restoring cameras like this is worth it.

I've got the mechanical stuff sorted out, the leather replacement is no issue but the paint is gonna be a drag. All the paint I've applied, no matter if I've sanded the metal, used a primer, haven't used a primer, used enamel or laquer... it can be scraped off with my finger nail. I've even left one set for over a year... still comes off.

I will try to get some epoxy paint in matte from a hobby supplier and try that. It's gonna cost however. $60.00 for the set up.

I've also considered black chrome, which is electroplated on. This may be really nice if it works.

You have painted stuff, right?

Yep, I have.

1. You are putting the paint on too thick. The under layer(s) are not drying because the top layer of paint is forming a shell over it. Thin your paint by about 50% before spraying and remember that 2-3 thin coats are way better than one thick one.
2. Use an automotive grade enamel, and (this is important) once it is dry, bake it. No, this doesn't mean put it in an oven. What you do is build a pine box or get an old metal toolchest and install a couple of 100-watt lightbulbs in it. Drill 3-4 dime sized holes in the box/toolchest, so it doesn't get hot enough in there to melt anything. Put the camera in the box with the ights on (once the paint has dried) and leave it there for at least 12 hours. This is what they do to harden the paint on cars, and it works on cameras too.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Oh yes, just to add a note:

I painted the top of a particularly ratty looking Moskva 5 with black wrinkle paint. I consider this a success. It make the camera look very nice.

Only weird thing I ever did that could be compared to that was with a Ciroflex TLR. The Ciroflex has a steel frame and I got a tube of "Birchwood Casey" bluing (the stuff they use to put that blue-black finish on guns). Looked GREAT, but then I found out that it wasn't waterproof, so I wound up painting it. ON the otehr hand, there is this stuff they use to "brown" the barrels of replica muskets. It is a chemical that causes a sort of controlled rust (a sort of satin brown finish). This IS waterproof, once you have rubbed it down with linseed oil. I'm not sure how that would look though.

 

[literiter]

Yep, I have.

1. You are putting the paint on too thick. The under layer(s) are not drying because the top layer of paint is forming a shell over it. Thin your paint by about 50% before spraying and remember that 2-3 thin coats are way better than one thick one.
2. Use an automotive grade enamel, and (this is important) once it is dry, bake it. No, this doesn't mean put it in an oven. What you do is build a pine box or get an old metal toolchest and install a couple of 100-watt lightbulbs in it. Drill 3-4 dime sized holes in the box/toolchest, so it doesn't get hot enough in there to melt anything. Put the camera in the box with the ights on (once the paint has dried) and leave it there for at least 12 hours. This is what they do to harden the paint on cars, and it works on cameras too.

I did #1 but I haven't tried #2, Good grief! I will try the oven baking thing, I've got the stuff including access to a metal box of a good size. let you know.

 

[literiter]

Only weird thing I ever did that could be compared to that was with a Ciroflex TLR. The Ciroflex has a steel frame and I got a tube of "Birchwood Casey" bluing (the stuff they use to put that blue-black finish on guns). Looked GREAT, but then I found out that it wasn't waterproof, so I wound up painting it. ON the otehr hand, there is this stuff they use to "brown" the barrels of replica muskets. It is a chemical that causes a sort of controlled rust (a sort of satin brown finish). This IS waterproof, once you have rubbed it down with linseed oil. I'm not sure how that would look though.

I have done the gun blue idea on a very thin steel plate. It was then engraved, blued and laquered. It never rusted and it looked great. The gun blue idea would look nice on a camera but the laquer could come off for the same reason paint would.

I'm gonna do the baking thing with auto enamel(thank you very much). If this doesn't work I'll try my idea with the epoxy.

Vincent

 

[literiter]

This should be another thread. No one has mentioned Weltis (til now of course).

Anyway I've found myself with another nice little Zeiss Contessa. This will be my second 'cause I like a parts camera.

The light meter doesn't work very well on either and I will try to repair both of them. Any thoughts?