I need feedback from everyone. (Classifieds)

[RJBender]

Imposing a minimum 10 day return period will cause a lot of problemsj, I'm sure. Buyers remorse, people who damage something within the large TEN day window, etc. If buyers are prepared to deal with returns, they'll offer them anyway, since they help increase sales. I've frequented online FS forums for everything from computer hardware, fountain pens, to watches, paintball guns and knives, and one thing I've seen be true in all cases is that the less oversight/complexity added by mods, the better.

A new feedback forum would help a lot, with a thread for each user. Other than that, the best approach is to set some basic rules, and just make sure everyone knows that there is risk involved, and that they should do their best to practice safe buying techniques. Things to do: check feedback and any provided references, get a real (not free) email address and a phone number, check the phone number, pay with a credit card if possible, etc.

Trying to police the classfieds with more rules and regulations is only going to further diminish it.

I talked with two eBay powersellers a week ago at a camera show. They told me about a new eBay scam. People buy your camera, swap out parts from your camera with broken parts and then send it back to you for a refund. :bang:

R.J.

 

[Nick R.]

One thing I've noticed on RFF is that posting a link to your eBay auction seems to be frowned upon. I really don't understand why. 😕

For example, Honu-Hugger has a bunch of primo Contax and Alpa gear listed on eBay right now and he hasn't said a word about it here on RFF. Is it because he'd get flamed if he mentioned it?

R.J.

One reason is that there are maybe 10,000 pieces of RF gear for sale on ebay at any one time and if everyone put a pointer here to their ebay auctions that's all this place would be.

 

[boarini2003]

I think that in addition to feedback, all sellers must provide some sort of return policy to be able to sell, ensuring that any conflicts can be resolved promptly.

 

[RJBender]

Jorge,
There is one simple answer, if the classified are proving to be a problem, then stop them. This is a camera forum not a market place. I know it sounds harsh and I have benefited greatly from both buying and selling on the forum but if it is going to cause damage, it would be better to do without it.

I can't speak for the other 2 or you but as a Mod, I do not want to get involved in disputes. This job is difficult enough as it is. I have always tried to be impartial and I think we generally succeed. In an exchange of words, it is often quite possible to find a solution and nothing is lost except perhaps some pride. When money is involved it is different. No matter how impartially I acted, there will be a winner and a loser and with it accusations of siding with friends/old-timers etc.

As to a feedback rating system, especially such as eBay, I don't think they work. If a buyer or seller acts dishonestly, the feedback they leave is also likely to be dishonest. As Luigi has pointed out nearly half the negative feedback on eBay is false and retaliatory.

In the past it worked very well. About the only complaints were because some missed out on a good deal due to a mix up with posts as opposed to emails or PMs.
There were a few misunderstandings usually because one party had a problem. The most notable of these recently was probably when a member "seemed" to have disappeared. In the end though, I get the impression that it all worked out and most were happy.
Although many left comments in the feedback thread, I am not sure that this was used all that much. It is not very user friendly. I think it worked partly because we were smaller but mainly because it worked on a referral scheme. If you look in the "old" threads most contained quite a few posts with many saying it was a good deal and recommending the seller etc. The new ones have this facility but it doesn't seem to be used. It might be because we are bigger but more likely that most log on the recent threads page. The ads appeared as new posts and many would look out of interest and perhaps add something. With the new ones, you have to go looking and as most of us are lazy, we don't go there unless looking for something.

I am not a fan of restrictions based on post counts (promotes spamming) or time on board etc. Members are members and should not be "classed". Besides several members have benefited from good deals from newer members either because they were known elsewhere or someone has come asking for advice about an inheritance or similar.

More questions than answers I'm afraid but for me the important points are:
The forum is more important than the sales. If the sales cause problems for the board they should be dropped rather than cause damage. They have to be caveat emptor and neither you nor the mods should be involved in policing them or acting to resolve disputes.
The only reliable "recommendation" system is one based on referral rather than feedback.

Kim

How can Jorge delete the classifieds, Kim? The $25 membership upgrade included free ads in the new classified forum. I think Jorge would have to refund a few thousand dollars if he did that.

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

One reason is that there are maybe 10,000 pieces of RF gear for sale on ebay at any one time and if everyone put a pointer here to their ebay auctions that's all this place would be.

I would bid more if I knew the seller was from RFF.

R.J.

 

[sf]

I think the feedback section is good enough. There is no way to do things other than in trust.

 

[David Murphy]

Jorge,

One last comment. The system you have setup where anyone can comment on an item in a discussion thread beneath the classified ads is prone to abuse. Persons not involved in the transaction, or worse persons who were not able to sucessfully negotiate a deal can make disparaging remarks. I suggest that feedback and commentary be limited to the persons directly involved in the transaction: i.e., the buyer and the seller.

With regards to warranties on items, I think think this should be negotiated between the buyer and seller. Some items are often sold as is, and others with a warranty (usually limited or otherwise). Requiring warranties will limit the volume of transactions (which are already quite low) and raise prices. The small time buyers and sellers here can hardly be expected to be held to the standards of a retail camera store, and warranties also deprive buyers of potential bargains. I myself usually take a return if it is for a good reason, unless the item was purely surplus or sold with known defects (for parts, limited use, an expendable e.g. film, etc.).

Once again I think most persons are well-intentioned, and if you police-out the really bad apples with repeated failed or fradulent deals you will keep things very prosperous for all parties concerned.

-- David

 

[Rich Silfver]

I think the feedback section is good enough. There is no way to do things other than in trust.

Guess I haven't figured out the feedback section enough.
To me the 'feedback section' when it comes to purchases here on RFF is a sticky post with pages and pages of comments. Not exactly scalable or userfriendly.

It would be nice to have something very similar to eBay's setup, something that at a minumum would show;

a) How many feedbacks the person has received (split in positive, negative and neutral),
b) See the feedback the person has left, and
c) Links to what auctions the feedback pertains to.

Since either all sales through RFF are without flaws - or people simply don't want to post any negative comments here due to the community feel - it would also be nice to have a tally showing the total number of completed sales. Anyone who is interested in buying could compare that number to the number of feedbacks the person has received and make their own conclusions/assumptions.

 

[Rich Silfver]

I think the feedback section is good enough. There is no way to do things other than in trust.

If there is no way to do things other than in trust then why even the need for a feedback section?

What do you base the trust on? If the answer is previous people's comments and rating - then why would an improved way of tracking and displaying such rating not be beneficial to building 'trust' - and hence be better than the existing feedback section?

 

[rxmd]

Imposing a minimum 10 day return period will cause a lot of problemsj, I'm sure.

Not the least of these is that there is quite a number of international purchases where it is simply impractical to send things back and forth across continents.

Philipp

 

[rxmd]

One thing I've noticed on RFF is that posting a link to your eBay auction seems to be frowned upon.

I don't know what it's like in the US, but at least here in Germany eBay policy disallows advertising of eBay auctions, at least from Usenet newsgroups.

Philipp

 

[Kim Coxon]

If you read my post more carefully, you will find that only I am not advocating the deletion of the classifieds but also that I think all members should be treated equally. Members are members and should not be "classed". If the classifieds go, then it deprives all members of the facilty of both buying and selling. However, if the classified cause such problems that it affects the main purpose of the site, then it may be the choice between the lessor of two evils. A site without the sales would be better than no site at all and again everybody loses.

Furthermore, if I had been saying that the sales should cease, then why waste my time discussing ways to help make it work?

Kim

How can Jorge delete the classifieds, Kim? The $25 membership upgrade included free ads in the new classified forum. I think Jorge would have to refund a few thousand dollars if he did that.

R.J.

 

[aad]

The feedback option in the current classifieds seem under-utilised. Maybe most folk don't know about it.


if you click on a seller's profile IN THE AD SECTION you can add comments, and a symbol will appear next to their name-ONLY in the ad section. It works great, I think it just needs to be publicised.

 

[Kim Coxon]

David,
Whilst I agree that any "feedback" should be limited to the buyer and seller, I think leaving the comments open while the sale is going on is useful. At the moment it is not abused and most of the third party comments are generally good for the seller either in the form of a recommendation for them or the gear they are selling. If that changes, then the normal rules of posting and moderartion would apply.

Kim

Jorge,

One last comment. The system you have setup where anyone can comment on an item in a discussion thread beneath the classified ads is prone to abuse. Persons not involved in the transaction, or worse persons who were not able to sucessfully negotiate a deal can make disparaging remarks. I suggest that feedback and commentary be limited to the persons directly involved in the transaction: i.e., the buyer and the seller.

-- David

 

[RJBender]

If you read my post more carefully, you will find that only I am not advocating the deletion of the classifieds but also that I think all members should be treated equally. Members are members and should not be "classed". If the classifieds go, then it deprives all members of the facilty of both buying and selling. However, if the classified cause such problems that it affects the main purpose of the site, then it may be the choice between the lessor of two evils. A site without the sales would be better than no site at all and again everybody loses.

Furthermore, if I had been saying that the sales should cease, then why waste my time discussing ways to help make it work?

Kim

I agree with your statement "the forum is more important than the sales."

Perhaps I don't understand what you meant here:

"There is one simple answer, if the classified are proving to be a problem, then stop them."
"If the sales cause problems for the board they should be dropped rather than cause damage."

R.J.

 

[John]

For the first three things I bought here I stated to the seller that I was buying based on their description. In all three instances the sellers offered me a money back guarantee less shipping if I was not satisfied. Some said take it and try it and pay if you like it. I did not want that much of a favour. I did trust each seller to honour their word. Each item was close enough to satisfy me - especially based on ebay sellers sending broken junk or nothing at all.

 

[RJBender]

I don't know what it's like in the US, but at least here in Germany eBay policy disallows advertising of eBay auctions, at least from Usenet newsgroups.

Philipp

I think it's O.K. in the US:

Linking to eBay From Your Website
Drive internet users to your eBay store or listings using a special button we’ve created for you. If you’d like to create a link to eBay from your website, we can make it easier for you. Visit the Link Your Site to eBay page to learn more.


source: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/everyone-ebayipuse.html

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

The feedback option in the current classifieds seem under-utilised. Maybe most folk don't know about it.


if you click on a seller's profile IN THE AD SECTION you can add comments, and a symbol will appear next to their name-ONLY in the ad section. It works great, I think it just needs to be publicised.

How do you leave feedback for a buyer in that section?

R.J.

 

[umana]

"How about this:

If the two parties can't come to an agreement they could talk to a staff member who could be the mediator between the two. If they then still can't work it out and the mediator really feels that one party is not cooperative and is cheating the other that staff member himself could give the bad feedback or in severe cases even ban the member (and maybe even give out the cheaters real name to the forum so he can't cheat anymore people. This, of course, only in the case of fraud).

I wouldn't let members give bad feedback on their own since this could possibly get quite excessive and could result in open disputes on the forum.

just my 2 cents"

Jamie, I would LOVE this solution ! That is exactely what I am suggesting to e-B-y
since years ago, but no hope... The only way, with them, is to use Square Trade mediators,
which cost is, seem to me, $ 15. I succesfully used them three times, but it is a slow and
a quite disappointing experience. And, I think that such a tiring service can't be cost free.

"Originally Posted by RJBender
Some of the other photo forums require that all sellers offer a 10 day money back guarantee. It's not a bad idea."

I agree, too, BUT, often, there are customs fees involved. And, who would pay for BOTH shippings ? Of course, always the buyer, when, often, the misrepresentations are due to a poor (cheatty) seller's description ! Ciao, Luigi

 

[KoNickon]

Echoing Kim's point, before there was a formal Classifieds section people had no trouble selling stuff here -- the only drawback seems to have been that you might miss seeing the original posting advertising it. Maybe the increased formality of the Classifieds requires there be formalized ways to provide feedback, but I'm not sure I agree with that. Knowing the reputation of the seller, from reading his or her other posts, ought to give enough of a feel for whether the person is trustworthy, it seems to me.

Regarding whether Jorge would have to return the $25 to everybody, somehow I doubt anyone would be demanding it back. (And I intend to pay the fee myself, but I never heard whether options other than credit card or PayPal are available.)