Interesting opinions about RFF

dadsm3 said:
Good point Rich....I think most of us realize when English is not the writer's first language, but it's obvious that this is often not the case.

English is my third language - in order of picking it up. Nowadays I guess I speak it as well I still speak my native language...which is saying more about how rusty I am in that one than anything else......
 
This is a great thread, it shows how everyone sees eachother and their work. It's one of the most illuminating threads I have seen on this site in a very long time.
 
The only thing I have to say about Chris Weeks' blog is - please be aware that his use of the term "Mate" has nothing to do with the Australian concept of mateship, as I know it.
 
I find myself on both sides of this argument.

For five years in the mid-80s I produced what was still called an “underground comic”. Misspellings, ravings and grammatical errors were part of the persona I adopted as "editor". Regular readers - ultimately around 700 hardy souls - “got the joke” and were part of “my” community. I see a similar thing happening with blogs - just as it happened in the pamphlets of the 17th century . To be perfectly honest, none of these lads begin to approach Abiezer Coppe in foul-mouthed vitriol and sublime incoherence.

Yet I do see a problem. The origin of English is unlike that of any other major language. It is essentially a fusion of two wildly incompatible tongues - Anglo-Saxon and Norman-French - with contradictory grammatical structures and unrelated vocabularies. Their synthesis created a new language of incredible flexibility and inclusiveness. No word is foreign to any English speaker.

This in turn creates a difficulty, one which was faced by the earliest writers, particularly after the invention of printing. Given an immense vocabulary, if people are going to communicate effectively they need to have certain things in common. That is the origin of grammar and agreed spelling. I love the English literature of the “early modern era” - say 1480 to 1600. It was an age of social and intellectual transformation, with astonishing discoveries and ideas, spread by new, democratic, communications technology. People wanted to share thoughts and experiences. They developed a new sense of themselves. Very quickly, during this period, written English moved from a web of incomprehensible local dialects to a common, universal language, not because it was "right" but because it made communication easier.

Slang or dialect is perfect in its natural place, but wider use runs counter to the fundamental nature of English as an inclusive language, as its purpose is to exclude others. That is why I believe it evokes hostility amongst people here. A simple misspelling is no fault at all, but to deliberately misspell is an egotistical adolescent affectation. I knw. I did it too. I still sometimes do, in letters to old friends, as a tacit acknowledgement of shared intimacy and experience.

But - to use such an approach in a context like this forum, where people from many countries and linguistic backgrounds are trying to share knowledge, experience and goodwill, can easily seem to suggest that the user does not really wish to communicate and disrespects the community.

Just my two groats worth.

Ian
 
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I have had problems reading some of the stuff written by people from Deviant Art although I liked some, perhaps more than some, of their photography. But the written piece accompanying the photos I just had to skip - I really didn't like it.

English is my second language too. Sometimes (most of the times) it takes a little longer to write a piece in order to avoid undue misunderstandings stemming from misuse of grammar, syntax, diction and idiom ambiguity. Apparently this is not something which members in other fora fret about. But the appeal of this forum compared to all other is that the very fabric of communication here is intertwined with a tacit agreement about language use.

Some of the things in the RFF archive are a joy to read and that's what makes the forum a photography club with a difference. Perhaps it has little or none of the sturm und drang of other fora frequented by the fast and the furious and grammar abuse will always annoy the members, as if we were a tea society for old ladies, but then this attitude does come with age (and, somewhat infuriatingly for the younger ones, experience as well) and age is very often one of the differences between posters here and those elsewhere. The other difference is the internationalism of the forum which must be down to the fact that native speakers speak a version of English that is not alien or (worse) incomprehensible to the non-native speakers. It appears that some sort of proper English is the lingua franca in this forum and that constant operates as a sort of filter when it comes to who contributes and who doesn't. All fora perpetuate themselves in this self-selecting way. The RFF is no different in that respect, it is different in that it is indeed an ivory tower, a sanctuary if you will, for those who choose to write and behave in a certain way. In my opinion the specific difference of this forum to all the other has more to do with the mode of communication than photography or, it would seem, rangefinders themselves!

EDIT: Ian, you posted as I was writing - as it will be obvious, I fully agree.
 
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It's different with you Nachkebia, you are making the effort and that's something everyone appreciates - and that's exactly the point in RFF (or so it seems to me), everyone makes the effort to communicate 😉
 
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> The origin of English is unlike that of any other major language.

That's not entirely true. You hear this kind of statement quite a lot from English speakers, as if it was some distinguishing phenomenon of English, but language contact, diffusion and exchange are really everywhere. I guess Hindi or Bengali (some 180 million native speakers each) would be pretty much comparable, drawing from Sanskrit, Persian and Turkic. Persian itself with its 90 million-or-so native speakers has something like 50 to 70% of its vocabulary from Arabic, which has a completely different grammatical structure (and I mean completely, not building on a common ancestor language as with the Germanic and Romance case). Russian with its 170 million native speakers has some 40 to 50% of its vocabulary from Greek, not by way of direct loans but by way of loan translations (calques). English is really just another instance of a very widespread linguistic phenomenon.

Philipp
 
I don't mind spelling mistakes at all. For me this is not about intellectual superiority. I'm also not criticising the author for his use of f***ing. I just find it hard to read and can't usually be bothered.

Sometimes on the bus in South London, you'll hear conversations like this one:

I was like "f***ing...."
and she was like "f***ing..."
and I was like "f***ing...." know what I mean?

And all I can personally think is "no, I do not know what you mean!".

The word f***ing is used to express some sort of strong feeling, possibly some sort of mutually held strong feeling. If it's not mutually held, it's very hard to garner the sense of it. I felt the PDF was trying to paint a romantic hard-edged view of street photography, and the use of the word f***ing was part of that, but I just didn't connect with it. That's all.

Thankfully photographs communicate in a way beyond language. I like some of his photos, and not others. It was definitely not a waste of my time to look at the photos.
 
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I think I own him apology! I have just downloaded PDF again, and checked! oddly I was looking at PDF in full screen mode, which streched photos and made them look bad quality! Now I have checked 100% and pictures are fine!
Sorry Chris Weeks!
 
I'm gonna keep out of this one, I woz too nackered last nite to bova readin it propa, and sounds like ya oll a bunch a nutters.

I'll keep my opinions, and my academic grades/abilities, to myself now on I think 😀
 
rxmd said:
> The origin of English is unlike that of any other major language.

That's not entirely true. You hear this kind of statement quite a lot from English speakers, as if it was some distinguishing phenomenon of English, but language contact, diffusion and exchange are really everywhere. I guess Hindi or Bengali (some 180 million native speakers each) would be pretty much comparable, drawing from Sanskrit, Persian and Turkic. Persian itself with its 90 million-or-so native speakers has something like 50 to 70% of its vocabulary from Arabic, which has a completely different grammatical structure (and I mean completely, not building on a common ancestor language as with the Germanic and Romance case). Russian with its 170 million native speakers has some 40 to 50% of its vocabulary from Greek, not by way of direct loans but by way of loan translations (calques). English is really just another instance of a very widespread linguistic phenomenon.

Philipp

Absolutely Philipp - I was over-simplifying, for which I apologise. My specific point was that both Anglo-Saxon and Norman-French had very elaborate - and very dissimilar - grammatical structures. When the two merged in the 11th-12th century they did not immediately evolve a common grammar nor fit words into an existing form. They virtually abolished grammar altogether. Which is why - for example - English very largely lacks inflected gendered nouns, which were important in both Anglo-Saxon and Norman, remaining a significant feature in most modern Indo-European languages.

Beyond the level of normal conversation, English of the early medieval period is laden with ambiguity and often very hard to understand - we know that it was difficult even for contemporaries. Plus - even more than most vernacular tongues - it enjoyed extremely low status, French and Latin being the language of church, law, literature and government. There was no "correct" grammar and huge variations abounded. It was not really until the 14th century that something like a stable English emerged and I would argue that this period of chaos gave a characteristic flexibility to the language.

Which is not, I stress, some sort of chauvinistic value judgement. The virtue of English seems to me to lie precisely in its nature as an intensely ecclectic, international lingua franca, enriched from innumerable sources.

All the best, Ian
 
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A friend sent me this a few months ago. I think it fits very well. 🙂

Khaled


The future of English


The Europe Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the European Union rather than
German, which was the other possibility.


As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that
English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-
year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up
konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be
growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph"
will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20%
shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag
is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th"
with "z" and "w" with "v".



During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords
kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl
riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in
ze forst plas.
 
I was sent this by a Norwegian friend a few months ago, which sort of adds some historical spice. We're working together on an international project with Romania, Spain, Sweden and the UK. It made us all laugh.
 
Interesting stuff chums - Jocko is quite right to mention that at one point English was a low status language and very nearly vanished altogther. When I was in Cornwall two years ago, I was told that it was saved by being written down by Cornish scholars.

A curious feature of English results from the flexibility that Jocko mentioned. With no gendered nouns and incredibly flexible syntax it is astoundingly easy to communicate in English with little study. This is why the mangled sentences of Yoda in Star Wars are comprehensible and also why English has spread so easily and quickly. Our spelling, however, is another issue and we have got what we deserve for borrowing so heavily from so many of everyone else's languages.

Don't be too taken in by English "Grammar" which is the result of a scholastic attempt to make it confirm to the rules of classical Greek and Latin during the 19th C and why English grammar is a subject of deep torture for school students. Anyone fancy defining a gerund or a synecdoche?
 
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