Is Leica now officially a "hobbyist's" camera?

[kevin m]

The recent sale by Chuck A of my old M6TTL got me thinking. Here's a camera that had all the right mods: Flare-free finder upgrade by DAG, black calfskin Cameraleather cover and black dot to replace the red dot, and it's (arguably) much more asthetically pleasing than a stock, black chrome camera, and much more useable...

...and it sells for less than a bone-stock M6TTL with its flare prone finder, plasticy body cover and ugly red dot.

A friend of mine with a good sized Leica collection reports much the same thing: Any modified Leica brings less money than a stock one. He also notes that any Leica item sells for more money with all the original packaging, and jokes that lenses go for less without the "Echtes Leder" tag on the lens case.

Among knowledgeable users of other pricey items - Porsche cars come to mind - that normally isn't the case. The right mods, correctly done, add value, or at the very least, make for a speedy sale.

Couple that with the aversion to taking the camera out in public and exposing it to knocks and dings so often expressed on forums like this, along with the equally frequent concerns expressed about "investing" in Leica gear and it seems fair to ask if anyone but hobbyists is actually shooting with the brand anymore.

I used to know half a dozen or more photographers who used Leica M's for professional work, now I personally know of none. Does that seem an accurate observation?

 

[FrankS]

IMO, Leica has had its professional heyday and has ben bypassed by digital slr for professional use in many/most areas. Maybe sad, but that's jsut the way it is. Things change.

 

[J. Borger]

I did not know a single pro personally who used a Leica (some had them in their closet and used them YEARSSS ago however) untill the M8 came around .... now i know several!

 

[kbg32]

No. I know plenty of photographers who take their M cameras out every day and use them. Knocks, scuffs, etc. be damned. They may be taped up to hide the identity of the camera, but who is adversed to taking them out in public?? They are meant to be used. Digital has definitely stepped into the workflow of professionals for ease of delivery of images, etc., to clients. There will always be collectors, hobbyists, who are afraid of getting their equipment scratched, dinged, scuffed. Why buy something that will only sit on a shelf?

 

[back alley]

i would think that the largest majority of rf users are in it for the hobby and therefore most rf cameras are also in it for the hobby.

 

[rogue_designer]

I know a half dozen or so pros who don't shoot their leicas when they are on a job (most use digital medium format). But shoot them when they are having fun.

I don't know any news/editorial photogs who still use them professionally.

fwiw - my pro camera budget has all been re-allocated to replacing my printer, scanner and LF along with a few new lenses, and possible investment in a digital MF back (and more lenses). Otherwise, Chucks sale of your old cam was very high on my wish list of M bodies. I just can't justify the expense on something that is such a fraction of my income earning equipment.

 

[.JL.]

The right mods, correctly done, add value, or at the very least, make for a speedy sale.

The key here is 'correctly done'. Modification adds the uncertainty that the job is not done correctly - this is assymetric information, the buyer does not have the same knowledge/reassurance as the seller.

For cars, in Toronto at least, it's the same thing. Porsche or anything else have lower resale value if it's modified outside of original/designated shops (w/ proofs). I see modifications as sunk costs.

I am not saying your M6TTL mods are not done right, just that the buyers are not as sure as you are. Most people would rather buy a stock item and modify it to fit their preferences.

 

[HAnkg]

The vast majority of all cameras are used by hobbyists. That's what supports all camera companies, Canon included. Anything that can be used to make images that will sell has been used by pro's and that could include Holga's, 8x10 view cameras, a Cheerios box with a hole punched in it and modern DSLR's. What does it matter what car, bicycle, tennis racquet or camera any particular pro uses? If you are planning on spending time on the top of Everest, in impassable Tropical rainforests or in the Artic well then you might want a camera with weather seals. Use what works for you. If your images sell, you can call your rig a 'pro' camera.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

The vast majority of all cameras are used by hobbyists. That's what supports all camera companies, Canon included.

And Nikon! I've actually seen many more Nikon D50 bodies out there than Digital Rebels, and I doubt that the majority of them are "professional". People who buy Porsches are not "professional" drivers either. Or people who buy expensive HDTVs are not "professional" vie...well, ok, maybe.

I think that observing a trend on a few Internet forums does not reflect the reality of the world as a whole.

 

[Ben Z]

I think it's been said by long-time dealers and reps that more of the top-end "pro" model cameras from every brand have been sold to hobbyists than professionals, going back to the 50's. Leica might have been selling a much lower % to pros than Canon and Nikon at least since the 70's--that's based just on my observation and conversations over the years, I have no hard numbers to offer.

Many hobbyists who buy pros cameras might want it to look like a pros camera, i.e. bone stock. Maybe that's why the cosmetic makeovers don't go over big with buyers. The MP viewfinder upgrade is a functional improvement, I can't see why that would bring the price down.

In the analogy to cars, I know if I see a used car that has had aftermarket stuff added, mechanical or trim, my little inner voice tells me to take a pass. I know it's unfair stereotyping, but I can't help thinking it was probably owned by a lead-footed youngster and is trouble waiting to happen.

 

[Nando]

Among knowledgeable users of other pricey items - Porsche cars come to mind - that normally isn't the case. The right mods, correctly done, add value, or at the very least, make for a speedy sale.

When it comes to collectible automobiles, that statement is not correct for the vast majority of cases. A factory-correct automobile will bring more money than an identical car that has been modified or has been "over restored". It is not uncommon for collectors to even duplicate errors made on the assembly line to insure accuracy in the restoration.

For a modified car to sell well, it usually must have a profound history or it must be associated with an important or famous person. Otherwise, a modified automobile has to appeal to a smaller market of collectors that like the same type of modifications done to the car. So, the size of this particular market is dependent on the modifications made to the car. Often times the market for such a car is so small that the owner has to sell at a much lower price or revert the car back to stock. In some cases, modifications for a particular car becomes so popular that an unmodified example becomes rare, thus driving prices for unmodified examples even higher.

In Europe, unrestored, complete original cars (in excellent condition but showing natural signs of age) have been commanding higher prices than restored examples lately. Even if the restored example is done to factory specs. This is a trend might come to North America.

Sorry for the OT remarks but I just wanted to point out this out.

 

[rover]

A professional will use whatever tool best can get the job he is doing done. I am sure there are plenty pro photogs still using Leicas. Not as many % wise as years gone by, but as everyone else has said, times have changed.

Is Leica a camera for the hobbyist? Yes
Is Leica a camera for the pro? Yes

It doesn't have to be for one or the other, it can be for both.

 

[aizan]

pretty much. has been for nearly half a century.

 

[steve garza]

why should it matter? does a Leica shooter use the camera because some "pro" uses the same model? or does the Leica shooter love the images the camera/lens produces (as well as the feeling the camera creates w/ usage).
I vote for the latter.

 

[Pablito]

What is a "pro" photographer? What is an "amateur"? These lines are not rigid. There are plenty of folks who are "pro" but do not work in news, where the speed of digital is essential. Is a fine arts photographer who makes a living from exhibitions, book publications and teaching but does not shoot weddings or news or product shots conisered a "pro"? If so, then you'll find a lot of "pro" photographres using Leica, other RF cameras including medium format, and film in general.

 

[JohnL]

I know exactly one pro who still uses an M6 as his primary camera. I don't personally know any who use any other M cameras as primary, although there are a few on the forums. There seem to be many more who use them for "fun", personal assignments and so forth. Serious amateur photogs seem to profile much the same as non-commercial pros, most of whom would consider an SLR (often digital) as their primary camera. Commercial pros (PJs, sports, fashion etc) seem to be virtually 100% digital for some years already. There also seems to be a huge contingent of collectors and amateur Leica owners who really don't make very many pictures, if any. This is all based on no scientific evidence ... just observation and hearsay. On this forum, over 90% reported on a recent poll that they had made pictures during the last week, which is probably *much* higher than the general population of camera owners, even Leica owners.

 

[rogue_designer]

I just remembered M. Chris Weeks.

He shoots his MPs right alongside his Canon Digitals. So there is one.

 

[georgefspencer]

...and it sells for less than a bone-stock M6TTL with its flare prone finder, plasticy body cover and ugly red dot.

I happen to like the ugly red dot on my M6TTL. 🙄

Among knowledgeable users of other pricey items - Porsche cars come to mind - that normally isn't the case. The right mods, correctly done, add value, or at the very least, make for a speedy sale.

Speaking as someone who has owned several Porsches over the years (and an ex-member of the PCA), I'm not sure that you are right on that one. Maybe if you are buying a new one you will pay for modifications but If you are buying an older Porsche you are probably more interested in one that is bone stock . . . . and if it is not stock you want it to at least have OEM parts.

Another example - I play/collect Martin guitars. A modified Martin is almost always worth less than a stock Martin.

I think you are correct in your observation that many Leica owners are not porfessionals (me included) any more. Many buy Leica camers as part of a collection and consequently want "stock" cameras.

Unitl I joined this forum I didn't know that I could modify my M6 TTL to make it a better camera. But now that I know I will still leave it stock . . . not because I am a collector . . . . but because I'm not a great photographer. It's a hobby.

 

[adep]

...When it come the to the News folks, film is a liability, there is just too much competition, the faster the better. ...

Not to mention the savings of literally thousands of dollars per month on film and processing. 😱

 

[furcafe]

I think the vast majority of owners of "professional" camera systems, of almost all formats, have always been amateurs/hobbyists, which is common sense since there are far more amateur snappers than pros, & camera companies want to make a profit just like other businesses. My impression is that the camera makers offer pro models primarily to boost prestige & experiment w/advanced features, etc. (like car companies participate in racing).

For 35mm RFs, this must have been true since @ least the 1930s, judging by the print advertisements & posters from Leitz & Zeiss Ikon that I've seen. Indeed, the entire market for 35mm was amateur @ the beginning because of the novelty & small size of the format.

I think it's been said by long-time dealers and reps that more of the top-end "pro" model cameras from every brand have been sold to hobbyists than professionals, going back to the 50's.