kshapero
South Florida Man
Of course include the M-A and even the T, at least for design. Speaking of the M-A, the last time anyone tried this with film was the classic nikon FM3a and that was way more than ten years ago.
Leica has guts
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abo_1970
Member
If anyone should do it, it's Fuji... seriously... imagine a monochrome X100... just awesome...
uhoh7
Veteran
Very selective guts LOL
Once they make a new nice M6 or CL sized M body for 4K USD....then I will give them, guts, class, and foresight!!
rbelyell
Well-known
yup. the way i see it is they took their m9, took out the color array etc, and resold it. now theyre taking their 240, taking out the color array etc and are reselling it. lewis and clark it aint.
Spanik
Well-known
Wouldn't call it "guts". They are just milking their audience delivering something exclusive and functional enough to get away with it.
For a company that made a name with extremely reliable cameras and world-class QC the way they dropped it lately is of more significance to me than those very special products. These days they cater for the collectioner more than the photographer.
For a company that made a name with extremely reliable cameras and world-class QC the way they dropped it lately is of more significance to me than those very special products. These days they cater for the collectioner more than the photographer.
jsrockit
Moderator
I don't know... If Nikon charged only a $500 premium on say a D810 monochrome, I don't think anyone would be so upset. The Monochrom is only $500 more than a M240 right?
f16sunshine
Moderator
Sounds a tiny bit bitter but you do have a point.
Consecutive camera releases with major flaws is not a good sign (m8&m9).
Sparrow
Veteran
... and you were expecting to getaway with glib remarks regarding a Leica product then?
... you seem not to understand how important Leica anthropomorphism really is sir!
drew.saunders
Well-known
Phase One offers two:
http://www.achromaticplus.com/Achromatic_Plus/Achromatic+.html
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ2-Series/IQ2-Specifications.aspx (The IQ260 is also available as an Achromatic)
Red makes one too: http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-monochrome-brain-only
Leica is the bargain option!
Pioneer
Veteran
Leica has certainly stepped out and produced some cameras that are outside the normal. You may think that building a monochrome camera is just "recycling" current products, but no one else is jumping out there and trying it. If you really think about it, it is quite unusual in today's world to see a camera manufacturer develop a product that has no competition and not have some competitive response from other manufacturers by this time.
I know that a lot of people make light of this, but if it were really as simple to do as everyone thinks, why isn't there at least one low cost alternative out there by now? I think everyone is wrong. I think this is a bigger deal then everyone thinks. I can't believe that someone hasn't gone to Sony and asked for a monochrom chip by now. And I am betting that Sony has said; "Sure. We'll build you one. But you have contract to buy a huge number before we will consider it." Once the bean counters run the numbers they realize that the price Leica is charging is not so far off from what they will have to charge.
You may not consider Leica courageous but they have certainly proven they are willing to develop and market products that no one else is willing to put on the market. I personally think that takes guts. They went to a chip maker and said; "Yes, we will take 100,000 (this number is total speculation) chips if you build them for us."
If you don't think that takes courage then it is clear that you have never had to go before your Board and your bankers and convince them to let you go ahead with any kind of big project, especially something that no one has ever done before. Most bean counters are NOT interested in being the first out of the gate with a new product, regardless of what you've been told.
I know that a lot of people make light of this, but if it were really as simple to do as everyone thinks, why isn't there at least one low cost alternative out there by now? I think everyone is wrong. I think this is a bigger deal then everyone thinks. I can't believe that someone hasn't gone to Sony and asked for a monochrom chip by now. And I am betting that Sony has said; "Sure. We'll build you one. But you have contract to buy a huge number before we will consider it." Once the bean counters run the numbers they realize that the price Leica is charging is not so far off from what they will have to charge.
You may not consider Leica courageous but they have certainly proven they are willing to develop and market products that no one else is willing to put on the market. I personally think that takes guts. They went to a chip maker and said; "Yes, we will take 100,000 (this number is total speculation) chips if you build them for us."
If you don't think that takes courage then it is clear that you have never had to go before your Board and your bankers and convince them to let you go ahead with any kind of big project, especially something that no one has ever done before. Most bean counters are NOT interested in being the first out of the gate with a new product, regardless of what you've been told.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
They do charge about the same for their top of the line cameras. About 8K for the MM and about the same for both the top of the line Nikons and Canons. I'm old enough to remember when Leica M's were over twice as much as the top pf the line Canons & Nikons. Looks like the big two caught up.
I agree that it is a bold move and nice to have a company making really different cameras than auto everything one size fits all of the big two.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Exactly, especially the highlight. Nine out of ten of "Why don't they..." or "Why does ____ cost so much" comments are based on solid, reliable ignorance of the realities of both R&D and manufacturing, to say nothing of the nature of niche markets.
Cheers,
R.
KM-25
Well-known
I dunno man, they treat me pretty well. For example, a buddy of mine badly scratched the rear element of his Nikon 35mm 1.4 AF lens, cost to repair was $600.
I bought a Leica 35mm 1.4 Asph that had a tiny but deep nick in the rear element & needed to be replaced, cost to repair $336.
Leica knows they have to do a lot of things right to charge what they do and while most of their customers are well heeled who like to brag or enthusiasts who like knowing they have "The Best", some of them are like me, pros who want to use Leica gear in more of their work but have to depend on the company to both stand by the products and do right by that same customer when things go haywire.
I'd say my lens repair and the way they are dealing with the M9 / MM9 sensor problems tell me that they are trying their best. I have taken my share of shots at Leica in the past but I am kind of tired of being that guy as I want to use more of the RF approach in my work, so they have my support.
The photo world would be a much poorer place without Leica so I too applaud them for doing what they have to even if the Lenny Kravits stuff makes Prada offerings look practical.
Spanik
Well-known
Actually this isn't a technical issue but more an organisatorial and marketing issue. There is absolutely no problem to buy monochrome sensors off the shelf, from catalog. You can just go and buy (well, maybe not as a private person) a 70mmx70mm monochrome sensor. Or any other size you want.
What is a problem for the large camera companies is that they are not set up for small series, having another small team for software to manage etc. And they do not have the customer base that is just waiting to buy just another camera to add to their collection.
So for them making such a camera would be proportionally much more expensive than a standard camera. For leica it fits their operational structure. Same why PhaseOne and Red are also able to pull it off.
It's not guts, it's just good sense.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
I'm still trying to figure out the T, too. Word is that the sales of this have fallen short of expectations, so apparently a lot of other people don't get the T, either (figurative or literally).
The M240, M-P and Monochrom are outstanding, though. I have a hard time seeing how or where Leica can go up from these three; they seem to be the zenith of digital M camera design.
cz23
Well-known
Maybe more necessity that guts. What else are they going to do? Compete with Canon/Nikon/Fuji/Sony on products? On price?
Seems like they are doing about the only thing they can do. Which is certainly a good thing.
John
Seems like they are doing about the only thing they can do. Which is certainly a good thing.
John
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
The way I see it, they're NOT taking chances. Their products evolve less than those of any other company. They have a niche target audience and they cater only to them. It's easy to predict what a small group wants, and they know that this small group has the means to pay for something that wouldn't ordinarily be commercially feasible.
What is a "pro / con Leica troller?" Anyone with a firm opinion?
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
They didn't afford me the same courtesy of expediency or efficiency. I bought a NEW 50 summilux ASPH which was clearly a lemon. CLEARLY. I sent it to them. They took two months, then sent it back to me. Unimproved. I sent it back, they sent it to Germany. Only here did they recognize that it was defective (imaging-wise) even though I had sent test photos showing it was an order of magnitude softer than a $30, 40 year old Russian lens. After six months I had a replacement. Later, they announced they were no longer servicing my CM....
Canon, on the other hand.... Wow. Hasselblad? Also fantastic.
kshapero
South Florida Man
MIkhail
Well-known
Funny indeed.
Samsung/LG, etc. had large phones for years and people said "who needs this if IPhone is so small and compact".
Then IPhone 6+ comes out and look- so large, beautiful! I NEED one!
It only shows that people can be persuaded so easily... same with cameras, cars....
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