Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Maybe we could assemble a few here in Oz ... I think the Holden car manufacturing plant is a little quiet and would welcome the extra work!
This whole thing's just another sad case of digital swamping film really!
This whole thing's just another sad case of digital swamping film really!
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braver
Well-known
good information, and makes sense. wonder what is their next move, if even this shift in production emphasis does not help with shortage of output. open up plant in Canada again ?
Yeah, that's what my first guess would've been too. If Leica is scrambling to make as much profit out of the succes of their new digital line as they can, that can only be positive in the long run. For Leica to survive as a company, for rangefinder cameras in general, both film and digital. I can definitely see how it's more practical to do short bursts of M7/MP production, like a couple of months every other year.
Arjay
Time Traveller
It doesn't come as a surprise to me that Leica is marketing their analog Ms as collectibles (see à la carte program). There was a time when Leica was owned by a large French company that was specialized on luxury items such as high fashion women's clothing or luxury bags (I believe it was LVMS - someone should correct me if I named the wrong company).
In this mindset, cameras can be seen as luxury products, and then it will appear perfectly acceptable to concentrate on a market of collectors or status seekers.
I know that we in this forum do not belong to this type of market, and I can therefore understand the frustration that comes up if a technical milestone (from times gone by) is now being sold as a collectors item.
OTOH, we can't blame Leica for applying economical sense: They have to make money to satisfy their shareholders and thus produce profitable products. It therefore can hardly come as a surprise that the M9 will probably generate more profit than undoubtedly fine cameras that use yesterday's technology, and for which there is only a tightly limited market.
I think the guys in Solms go about their business in a fairly intelligent way: They capitalize on the legendary Leica reputation to make a camera that follows the Leica identity (a RF camera), thus allowing them to market their camera at the topmost market layer - in between the luxury niche and the instrument for specialists.
I wish them success, and I believe they are indeed successful. All the more so, this could generate profits and ultimately enough capital to move into other market segments, in which they'd ultimately be able to reach a larger audience with products that would be a little more affordable for the "normal" photographer.
... and maybe these profits would even help them to keep the shrinking market for film RFs alive - something they surely won't be able if they don't have any 'cash cow' products.
In this mindset, cameras can be seen as luxury products, and then it will appear perfectly acceptable to concentrate on a market of collectors or status seekers.
I know that we in this forum do not belong to this type of market, and I can therefore understand the frustration that comes up if a technical milestone (from times gone by) is now being sold as a collectors item.
OTOH, we can't blame Leica for applying economical sense: They have to make money to satisfy their shareholders and thus produce profitable products. It therefore can hardly come as a surprise that the M9 will probably generate more profit than undoubtedly fine cameras that use yesterday's technology, and for which there is only a tightly limited market.
I think the guys in Solms go about their business in a fairly intelligent way: They capitalize on the legendary Leica reputation to make a camera that follows the Leica identity (a RF camera), thus allowing them to market their camera at the topmost market layer - in between the luxury niche and the instrument for specialists.
I wish them success, and I believe they are indeed successful. All the more so, this could generate profits and ultimately enough capital to move into other market segments, in which they'd ultimately be able to reach a larger audience with products that would be a little more affordable for the "normal" photographer.
... and maybe these profits would even help them to keep the shrinking market for film RFs alive - something they surely won't be able if they don't have any 'cash cow' products.
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dreamsandart
Well-known
Tom, I think you under stated those list prices by $1,000. And yes those dealers took a hit if they sat unsold. I still see the S3/50 sets at list price on Osaka shelves, and knowing the shops they aren't about to lower the price and loose yen!
At the time the price didn't seem so bad, if you remember the used SP prices a few years ago a black paint SP with a 35/1.8 the reissue was almost a bargain
Almost sad to see the reissue S3/50 going used/mint much less than half the price these days but good for the Nikon RF user - still after 50+ years like the M-series, great camera design.
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dreamsandart
Well-known
Back to Leica...
Its very possible that Leica has stopped M-series film camera production. I'm old enough that I was around back in the mid-70s when the same thing happened, can't remember any 'announcement' of the fact. There was a limited production of the M4 in black chrome after a time as a last hurrah. And only a year later after the M-series died, the M4-2, which we could say saved the Leica rangefinder as we know it ( would there ever have been a M8/M9 if that hadn't happened? )
With that in mind… yes, things have changed (digital) since the mid 70s. But its still 'what is selling', and film cameras sales have changed, just like the RF vs SLR debate/sales back then. When I look at the multiplying Leicas sitting on used shop shelves here in Japan the past couple years its no surprise.
Its been mentioned before that Leica could at some time stop 'normal' production of the film M-series, but that the a la carte program would supply any need for new cameras.
There are plenty of used film M-series out there. Leica is well aware of this fact. In the M9 interview with Stephan Daniel posted over at Luminous-Landscapes, he gave a strong 'hint' about Leica's feeling on this. To long a talk to go through at this time for me to get it exact, but I remember him saying something about as an 'alternative to the premium priced M9, that there were many used M8s'.
So if a film M-series still has your heart beat a few extra times - the used market. And if you really want that NEW film Leica (at a cost premium) - the a la carte program. But for most of the would be Leica folks moving up (or side-ways to digital), Leica is now or later going to have to be firmly in the digital capture manufacturing of cameras. They have 3 different quality/priced based categories now with the S2/M9/X1, and we can be thankful for that - Leica still lives - and if they still support the older film models and offer a custom edition now and then and the build to order M all the better.
Its very possible that Leica has stopped M-series film camera production. I'm old enough that I was around back in the mid-70s when the same thing happened, can't remember any 'announcement' of the fact. There was a limited production of the M4 in black chrome after a time as a last hurrah. And only a year later after the M-series died, the M4-2, which we could say saved the Leica rangefinder as we know it ( would there ever have been a M8/M9 if that hadn't happened? )
With that in mind… yes, things have changed (digital) since the mid 70s. But its still 'what is selling', and film cameras sales have changed, just like the RF vs SLR debate/sales back then. When I look at the multiplying Leicas sitting on used shop shelves here in Japan the past couple years its no surprise.
Its been mentioned before that Leica could at some time stop 'normal' production of the film M-series, but that the a la carte program would supply any need for new cameras.
There are plenty of used film M-series out there. Leica is well aware of this fact. In the M9 interview with Stephan Daniel posted over at Luminous-Landscapes, he gave a strong 'hint' about Leica's feeling on this. To long a talk to go through at this time for me to get it exact, but I remember him saying something about as an 'alternative to the premium priced M9, that there were many used M8s'.
So if a film M-series still has your heart beat a few extra times - the used market. And if you really want that NEW film Leica (at a cost premium) - the a la carte program. But for most of the would be Leica folks moving up (or side-ways to digital), Leica is now or later going to have to be firmly in the digital capture manufacturing of cameras. They have 3 different quality/priced based categories now with the S2/M9/X1, and we can be thankful for that - Leica still lives - and if they still support the older film models and offer a custom edition now and then and the build to order M all the better.
kdemas
Enjoy Life.
I am really not surprised that Leica does not currently have a line up and working on film M's at the moment, and frankly I don't see why they would at the moment. Stock of film M's with their retailers is very stagnant at the moment (ask your local dealer how many new film bodies they've sold in the last year) and there is plenty of new stock to meet current demand, and probably for some time to come.
So let's see, we have a red hot wet of products that have pent up demand (M9) and resources have been shifted to help meet said demand. At the same time, new film bodies are readily available for anyone who wants them. I don't see a problem.
If film body demand would spike and show a resurgence I am sure production would be done to meet demand. With the current excess inventory production isn't called for.
As mentioned earlier, how many people have bought a new film M recently? I bought two new in the last 5 years but most of our friends here buy used (which is just fine by the way!). With inventory in hand and low demand I believe the current production halt is probably well founded.
Now, back to shooting
So let's see, we have a red hot wet of products that have pent up demand (M9) and resources have been shifted to help meet said demand. At the same time, new film bodies are readily available for anyone who wants them. I don't see a problem.
If film body demand would spike and show a resurgence I am sure production would be done to meet demand. With the current excess inventory production isn't called for.
As mentioned earlier, how many people have bought a new film M recently? I bought two new in the last 5 years but most of our friends here buy used (which is just fine by the way!). With inventory in hand and low demand I believe the current production halt is probably well founded.
Now, back to shooting
Mackinaw
Think Different
Some clarification from Leica USA:
“Your questions comes timely, in fact just earlier this week I was in our factory where I saw the production of Leica’s M product lines. While we do not have a constant production of certain lenses and cameras, we have the ability to produce batches of those products. For example: Certain exotic lenses & cameras are produced in batches to be able to produce an economically feasible number of products.
In this case the M analog production line is just next to Leica’s M9 production line to which we have shifted our focus to better manage the backlog and reduce the wait for our customers.
As you might be well aware from the past, we have always stated that as long as it makes sense for Leica Camera AG to produce M analog cameras we will do so. At this time we are reaching our targeted numbers for M analog cameras and do well with the offering of Leica M a la Carte cameras. Just recently Leica Camera AG offered a special Leica M7 Hermes Camera. This camera was quickly sold out and is a sought after collectors camera.
At this time I have no indication that the Leica M analog cameras will be taken out of Leica’s product offering.”
See this URL:
http://leicarumors.com/
“Your questions comes timely, in fact just earlier this week I was in our factory where I saw the production of Leica’s M product lines. While we do not have a constant production of certain lenses and cameras, we have the ability to produce batches of those products. For example: Certain exotic lenses & cameras are produced in batches to be able to produce an economically feasible number of products.
In this case the M analog production line is just next to Leica’s M9 production line to which we have shifted our focus to better manage the backlog and reduce the wait for our customers.
As you might be well aware from the past, we have always stated that as long as it makes sense for Leica Camera AG to produce M analog cameras we will do so. At this time we are reaching our targeted numbers for M analog cameras and do well with the offering of Leica M a la Carte cameras. Just recently Leica Camera AG offered a special Leica M7 Hermes Camera. This camera was quickly sold out and is a sought after collectors camera.
At this time I have no indication that the Leica M analog cameras will be taken out of Leica’s product offering.”
See this URL:
http://leicarumors.com/
Jaques H
-
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Well if the collectors can keep the line going more power to them I say! May their shares rise and their property investments flourish!
oleg C
Established
I just got my new MP :angel:
oleg C
Established
Just got my new a la carte MP from Ken Hansen. He's a pleasure to deal with. http://www.kenhansenphotographic.com/
Cheers.
wentbackward
Newbie
I was in a camera shop here in HK yesterday and they had, that morning taken delivery of some Leica P&S's. 40 of them were in a bag and ready to go, the remaining ten we being bargained for on the phone. These guys can't get enough of the mass produced stuff ... meanwhile Leica are putting up showrooms all over the world, many (all) of which have no remit to actually make any money and the civil servant shop assistants are clueless about anything M as far as I can tell.
Basically it's a brand thing and Leica can make far more profit from their plastic fantastics than from M's. Most people don't even understand what an M is. You can't hand your M to a waiter for a family pic, but you can set a D3X on dumb mode and hand it to anyone and they can reasonably capture just about anything. My point is that the Leica is still on the top 100 things every man should have, it's at the same time mysterious and desirable. Have you ever handed a Leica to someone who has never held one and the reaction wasn't WOW! Just like a top of the line Ducati, it has appeal even to people that don't understand it. Like the top of the line Ducati there ain't much profit in that model, it's all the other stuff that rides on it's success.
The point is that it is in Leica's interest to keep camera obsessives fed and watered, that will mean film, at least for the remainder of my generation.
Basically it's a brand thing and Leica can make far more profit from their plastic fantastics than from M's. Most people don't even understand what an M is. You can't hand your M to a waiter for a family pic, but you can set a D3X on dumb mode and hand it to anyone and they can reasonably capture just about anything. My point is that the Leica is still on the top 100 things every man should have, it's at the same time mysterious and desirable. Have you ever handed a Leica to someone who has never held one and the reaction wasn't WOW! Just like a top of the line Ducati, it has appeal even to people that don't understand it. Like the top of the line Ducati there ain't much profit in that model, it's all the other stuff that rides on it's success.
The point is that it is in Leica's interest to keep camera obsessives fed and watered, that will mean film, at least for the remainder of my generation.
wentbackward
Newbie
I think it's more of a shame that my wife's friends compare my spending on camera gear as some justification to spend (twice as much) on handbags, i.e. they see them as the same proposition, a desire! But hey, Leica were on this long ago. A market we view, perhaps incorrectly as photography, they clearly understand it very well indeed (or are at least well advised).
Handbags at the same price as a new MP or Hermes special edition ... there's something oddly true about that association, the ignorance of those who don't understand a Leica M can give some great insight. What is being promoted to them, why do they even know the brand Leica, or care?
The biggest danger to us, whom actually appreciate what they are, is that Leica could spin off the propaganda machine and make something which is far less than we would desire, but keeps their image intact. That would mean that demand for M's has no significant $$ value.
A friends boss bought an M8 and didn't know it didn't come with a lens. As I know it's still sitting in a box. These people are our biggest threat, they don't even know what a camera is, let alone differences between them. They just want the object, not the result. These people will drive out quality. Bad money drives out good money ... Gresham's law.
Let's hope Leica have enough experience to keep looking years ahead and not just the next quarter.
Handbags at the same price as a new MP or Hermes special edition ... there's something oddly true about that association, the ignorance of those who don't understand a Leica M can give some great insight. What is being promoted to them, why do they even know the brand Leica, or care?
The biggest danger to us, whom actually appreciate what they are, is that Leica could spin off the propaganda machine and make something which is far less than we would desire, but keeps their image intact. That would mean that demand for M's has no significant $$ value.
A friends boss bought an M8 and didn't know it didn't come with a lens. As I know it's still sitting in a box. These people are our biggest threat, they don't even know what a camera is, let alone differences between them. They just want the object, not the result. These people will drive out quality. Bad money drives out good money ... Gresham's law.
Let's hope Leica have enough experience to keep looking years ahead and not just the next quarter.
c.poulton
Well-known
Phew, still saving up for a Leica MP and have a long way to go - let's hope leica are still producing MP's for the foreseeable future..... Or at least until I can afford one
That's corporate speak for:
Yes, the M analog factory line is still there, but we haven't run it since early last year. We don't sell many M7s and MPs, and have enough stock to keep us going for the foreseeable future. In fact, we'll probably never sell all that we have in stock anyway. So we probably won't ever have to crank up the production line to ever make another batch again. But its still there just in case
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
And you really think there won't be both film and digi commemoratives?
Though 'invention' is a bit generous. There were patents and even production cameras from other makers before 1913.
Cheers,
R.
tomele
Member
That's corporate speak for:
Yes, the M analog factory line is still there, but we haven't run it since early last year. We don't sell many M7s and MPs, and have enough stock to keep us going for the foreseeable future. In fact, we'll probably never sell all that we have in stock anyway. So we probably won't ever have to crank up the production line to ever make another batch again. But its still there just in case
You may well be right, although I doubt Leica would dump the assembly line without making a last collector batch of MPs priced at 10k+, just like they did with the f/1 Noctilux !
Jaques H
-
This is what I've been tormenting over whether to by one now before the prices go up, or wait for the "Last 1000" specials.
Hope it comes in one of those gorgeous wooden humidors lined with red silk.
Olsen
Well-known
Sure, and then it will be yet another '1000 camera last ever series', followed by yet another '1000 camera last ever MP', followed by yet another - and so on.
- Like Marlene Dietrich's farewell concerts. They continued far into her seventies, - until she broke her leg.
flip
良かったね！
Oooh, Ooooh! I like that idea! A digital barnack commemorative. Sign me up! :dance: