Leica IIIa repair - time to call in some help!

[Davidhel]

Here's the story... I've been using LTM Leicas now for the last 25 years and last year I finally took the plunge to teach myself how to repair these things!

I made the choice to buy a cheap 'fixer upper' to learn on - a IIIa in very worn condition with the shutter not firing on any speeds, dim rangefinder and dry mechanism - pretty much everything needed work (other than the curtains)... I did my research on the web, got the key repair texts which I've read and re-read!

I've stripped the camera down and cleaned it, got the shutter working on all speeds from 1/30 to 1/1000, adjusted the curtain tension, cleaned the slow speed mechanism, replaced the beam splitter mirror, cleaned and lubricated the mechanism - I'm almost there to having a working camera!

But I need your help with two things - which I thought would be easy, but are proving a real challenge!

1. After replacing the mirror, I can't adjust the vertical rangefinder image at all. I rotate the left ring after removing the cover and nothing happens - I'm not getting any vertical movement at all...the double image is there it just won't allign!...any ideas??

2. The slow speeds...the timings sound right, but half the time the camera reverts to 'Z' speed before the slow speed time kicks in (I can see the second curtain catches). I've tried adjusting the spring by the shutter speeds (which I replaced), but no joy... again, any ideas?!

I was torn as to whether to place this in the repair thread or here....any ideas or help hugely appreciated! Just to add, I don't want to send this to a repairer (who I'm sure would fix this in minutes!) I want to do this myself...I've invested many hours to get this far..and I just need some help to get over the last hurdle!!

Thanks loads as always!

 

[rfaspen]

Wow! you should consider yourself quite successful as of now.

The slow speed thing is always a bane. You say you checked out the B spring up near the speed dial? It is a tricky tension -- too much one way and B doesn't work, too much the other way and other things don't work).

I'll have to look at my notes about the rangefinder adjustment. Does the IIIa use a window (i.e., optical block), much like some Zorki's? Can't remember. I haven't been in a IIIa (or any other barnack) for a while now.

Definitely put in a post on Camera Repair Forum (now hosted here at RFF) and search through their archives too. BTW, I think you would have been better off starting with a IIIc or IIIf as the first barnack repair/overhaul. Easier to work on and more information that's readily available. Oh, and standardized parts! I can't tell you how many times the part from one IIIa didn't fit right on another IIIa. Cameras from that era were as much "hand built" as they were "production". Parts for later barnacks were more consistent. (although I can say early M3 variation is a nightmare too)

 

[Davidhel]

Thankyou - that was just the boost I needed to my confidence!!...there have been many times over the last few weeks when I've almost thrown this camera out the window in frustration...just as well I love them so much!

So tonight I made another spring (I think the other was slightly too short) and I almost have all the slow speeds going OK..I think this was the problem..still needs more work though!

If anyone else has any views on the rangefinder I'd love to hear them - my gut feeling is I haven't installed the beam splitter mirror correctly...

I've never fixed a camera before so please feel free to chip in with any advice / thoughts etc!

Thanks Rfaspen!!!

 

[john neal]

Dave,

You did put the mirrored surface on the correct face? If so, have you replaced the three screws so that the block can "rock" correcly to get the basic adjustment right?

On the slow speeds, this is a real pain to get right - providing the latch at the top is retracting correctly at anything over Z, you may need to look at the cam on the back of the slow speed knob - particularly if you have had the front plate off the shell to work on the escapement (were there shims in that joint?).

Check that you had the cam in the right position when you replaced the front plate - if the end of the rod is the wrong side of the turned up end of the escapement lever, you will never get the slow speeds working right (some bodies have a little hole in the front plate so you can check at the slowest speed (T or 1 sec).

Very small adjustments of the cam relative to the slow speed knob can have a big effect on the actual shutter time. I had one a while ago that I just could not get right - it turned out that the shaft behind the cam was bent :bang:

Best of luck, it sounds like you have done the hard work.

 

[colyn]

A few of the mistakes people make when replacing the half mirror. They do not clean off all of the adhesive from the rails which prevents the mirror from fully seating in the rails. They do not turn the mirrored surface to the rear like it is supposed to be. They do not position the mirror in the same place as the old such as pushing it in too far or letting it hang out over the outside edge. And last they do not properly adjust the assembly correct by way of the 2 adjusting screws. The third screw is the pivot screw.

 

[rfaspen]

First off, I'm way impressed if you've never repaired a camera before and you came this far. Very impressed. Most of us end up sacrificing something or another along the steep hill of learning.

john neal is right about that rod. I once had one that was slightly bent in a Canon RF. I'm not going to say who bent it, only that they didn't mean to. That person was rather focused on the removal of another component. It could happen to anyone.

I have yet to look at my IIIa notes. All camera innards begin to meld together in my very fuzzy memory. That's the whole reason I photograph my dis/re-assemblies and take notes. Now, where did I put those notes....? I doubt I will find them before Sunday -- very busy here with ski competitions this weekend. PM me if come Monday you're still interested. My guess is you at least mostly installed the new mirror correctly, but it may be worth checking its position as suggested by colyn. You can adjust horizontal but not vertical, right?

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

A few of the mistakes people make when replacing the half mirror. They do not clean off all of the adhesive from the rails which prevents the mirror from fully seating in the rails. They do not turn the mirrored surface to the rear like it is supposed to be. They do not position the mirror in the same place as the old such as pushing it in too far or letting it hang out over the outside edge. And last they do not properly adjust the assembly correct by way of the 2 adjusting screws. The third screw is the pivot screw.

+1
I replaced several beamsplitters, and vertical alignment does only work when the mirror is placed exactly vertical on its basis. Indeed you have to take off all old adhesives from the frame at which the mirror is glued on.
Further the new mirror must have the same dimensions of the old mirror: in most cases you have to file off a bit from the new mirror in order to make it better suitable.

About the slow speeds: I know you work on a IIIa, but please read the servicing instructions booklet on the IIIf, it can give you also some ideas for the IIIa on how to overcome the problems that you are experiencing.

 

[Davidhel]

Thanks all so much - all of this feedback has been a super help!

Right now I'm back on concentrating on getting those slow speeds right..last night the slow speeds were sounding better, but tonight the problem has returned! Pretty much all the time the slow speeds revert to a 'z' until you let go of the shutter release and the correct slow speed kicks in. The second curtain catches all the time and the only real change I get when I move the spring (by the shutter speeds) is for the second curtain to have no delay at all!...

Over the weekend will try to re-read the texts and also remove the body shell again to check that cam and positioning!

Tonight I also tried increasing the tension on the second curtain - that made no difference, so I reverted to how it was before. I also looked at the slow speed spring on the top of the camera - but I think this one only alters the speed length? One thing I haven't tried yet is adjusting the tension on the slow speed spring at the bottom of the camera...could that be the answer to my problems?!!

What do you reckon?

 

[Stuart John]

You have got the main speed dial set to1/20 sec when you are checking the slow speeds. If you have the camera set to B by mistake the slow speed won't work properly it will do just what you described.

 

[Davidhel]

Yep - that's the frustrating thing! it's set at 1/20th... all from 1/30 and up are great! The Z setting itself is great...even the T setting is great..

I'm getting the problem when it's set at 1/20 - all speeds from 1/20 down to 1 sec have the second curtain catching (so it acts like the Z setting) until you take your finger off the shutter release then you get the slow speed kicking in with timing sounding correct.....

It's a real puzzle...but I reckon its got to be something very simple!

Not giving up...still have some things to try!!!

 

[KoNickon]

I'll be interested to hear how you manage -- my IIIa has the exact same problem.

 

[colyn]

How well did you clean the crate along with the rest of the mechanics? How well did you relube? That sounds like old dried grease binding.

Some people only flood clean with lighter fluid which does no real good since it does not flush out the grease. After removal of the curtains the entire crate needs to be soaked for 24 hours then flushed. After drying then proper lubrication. Most good repair manuals will show where to lube and tell what lube to use..

The shutter spindles also need proper cleaning and relube with a good shutter oil. Most people don't bother to clean the 2 spindles which can get dirty from years of use.

 

[Platinum RF]

1. After replacing the mirror, I can't adjust the vertical rangefinder image at all. I rotate the left ring after removing the cover and nothing happens - I'm not getting any vertical movement at all...the double image is there it just won't allign!...any ideas??

First you need to tell me how you replace the mirror, take out the mirror only or take the mirror cage out then replace the mirror? then I will know where is the problem.

 

[xayraa33]

Yep - that's the frustrating thing! it's set at 1/20th... all from 1/30 and up are great! The Z setting itself is great...even the T setting is great..

I'm getting the problem when it's set at 1/20 - all speeds from 1/20 down to 1 sec have the second curtain catching (so it acts like the Z setting) until you take your finger off the shutter release then you get the slow speed kicking in with timing sounding correct.....

It's a real puzzle...but I reckon its got to be something very simple!

Not giving up...still have some things to try!!!

Here are some tips that helped me in the past.


Try cleaning the slow speed escapement again, preferably by letting it soak in naphtha overnight. After do not lubricate this unit with oil.

Make sure the the long lever rod going to the slow speed escapement from the fast speed dial lever is in the right position and not binding anywhere.

Find the optimal cam setting on the slow speed dial finesse cam with that central screw.

Try tensioning the 2nd shutter curtain a tiny bit more.

 

[Monochrom]

Hi,

As you noticed there is some alignment on the front round windows of the RF.

But they won´t be enough to make it right.

You have to get into the speed dial side of the RF.

There is a little plate with a number of little screws, those are the ones to get your alignment ok.

When you loose one you tight the other, if not the mirror insied wont be steady.

Fixing leicas is not difficult is it?

Bye!

 

[Scrambler]

I don't know the innards of a IIIa but logic indicates there is nothing wrong with your slow speeds, the triggering of them or any of adjustments to them. The problem is in the Z/B setting. Why is this engaging earlier in the shutter dial rotation than it should? Remembering that B will trigger the slow speeds, which yours does. It is not a fixed blockage since all the other speeds work fine.

 

[Dez]

Yep - that's the frustrating thing! it's set at 1/20th... all from 1/30 and up are great! The Z setting itself is great...even the T setting is great..

I'm getting the problem when it's set at 1/20 - all speeds from 1/20 down to 1 sec have the second curtain catching (so it acts like the Z setting) until you take your finger off the shutter release then you get the slow speed kicking in with timing sounding correct.....

It's a real puzzle...but I reckon its got to be something very simple!

Not giving up...still have some things to try!!!

I have just finished overhauling a Canon IVSB2 with this exact problem, and I have encountered it a number of times with screwmount Leicas. Surprisingly, it usually doesn't have to do with anything under the top, but in most cases involves the first curtain brake or the spring which engages the slow speeds.

First, I am assuming that you have cleaned and studied the rotating bits of the shutter mechanism under the top cover and understand how the first and second curtains get released, and how the slow speeds get engaged. Study the mechanism while winding and firing the camera to make sure you completely understand it.

With your camera, the second curtain is released before the first curtain completes its travel for all speeds above 1/20, so the brake comes into effect after the release of the second curtain. At 1/20th and slower, however, the brake is engaged before the second curtain releases, and this brake as well as the slow speed engagement mechanism, can put a significant retarding force on the rotating shutter mechanism, causing it to hang up before the cam comes around to push on the pawl which releases the second curtain.

You can determine for sure of this is happening by doing the following:
- With the top off, wind the shutter, and set it to the 1/20 position. This will be with the pin in the second hole counting clockwise.
- Fire the shutter. With the problem you are experiencing, you will probably see the cam that is supposed to release the second curtain pawl just touching the pawl, but not rotating sufficiently to disengage it.
- Wind the shutter again, and fire it, but this time hold onto the top of the rotating section with your fingers so you can allow it to rotate slowly until it stops. If my theory is correct it will come to a rather gradual stop, not rotated quite as far as it did last time. It's best if you do this with a locking cable release so you can leave the camera in this position while you go to the next step.
Take the bottom off the camera, and carefully observe the rotating disk which is at the bottom of the shutter mechanism.



It could possibly be that the brake is too tight, but the lifter spring which raises up the engaging cam of the slow speed mechanism is the usual culprit here. Note that the rotating disc has a pin which pushes on the raised portion of the lifter spring, just as the first curtain comes to the end of its travel. This pin can develop a sharp edge which will eventually carve a groove in the lifter spring, and may get stuck in that groove if any corrosion develops. If this is happening, loosen the two screws securing the lifter spring, and rotate it a little bit to have the pin track out of the groove. The best thing to do is actually to remove the spring and polish out any roughness where the pin hits it before putting it back in, Put a bit of grease on the raised portion of the spring to minimize friction, and prevent future corrosion.

This is not the only thing that can result in your problem, but I have serviced a lot of Barnacks, and this is usually what causes it.

Good luck,
Dez

 

[Dez]

A bit more info that can be helpful.....

Again, I am assuming that as the OP stated, the camera mechanism has already been thoroughly cleaned. Decades old congealed grease and other crud can cause a range of problems, including the slow-speeds-only-work-when-the-shutter-button-is-released one. The problem will almost certainly have something to do with having something impede the completion of the first curtain run. If the brake is at fault, you will probably have issues with shutter capping at high speeds. If this is not the case, the lifter spring or the vertical rod on which it pushes is the culprit. There may be too much friction with the pin on the rotating disc as in my first post, or something may be interfering with the travel of the vertical rod. This rod connects to the fork which interfaces the slow speed escapement, and at the top, raises the little flag that holds up the movement of the second curtain to provide the slow speeds. With the camera wound, push in on the lifter spring repeatedly and check for any roughness, which may indicate corrosion or (very unlikely) bending of that vertical rod.

One other common problem that I failed to mention in my first post was having something like a film chip jammed under the lifter spring. This can greatly increase its friction with the pin on the rotating disk. It's a good idea to remove this spring entirely to check for any such foreign matter and polish any roughness on the raised portion.

Cheers, and good luck,
Dez

 

[Davidhel]

Thanks again all! - lots of things for me to try!

Appreciate the rangefinder help - have made it my priority to tackle the slow speeds first, then I will come back to that over the coming days....!

Whilst it may not be the only contributing factor I can see exactly what Dez has said above is happening! I was thinking that I might need to look at adjusting the tension on that spring but had completely failed to see the wear on the lifter...thanks Dez!

Some other things I need to address (after potentially more thorough cleaning!)

Picture 1 - the slow speed rod (connecting the slow speed mechanism to the top of the camera). Whilst this seems straight, I will need to remove the patch of corrosion where it connects to the slow speed dial


IMG_2439 by David Helmore, on Flickr

Picture 2 - this shows the position of the top mechanism when slow speeds are set and the shutter is fired. Whilst the finger is on the shutter release, the second curtain catches. I will try what Dez mentioned and get back to you! The other thing I want to highlight now is the front screw (also ringed) right next to 'R'. When I first opened the camera, this screw was loose and not connected to anything....The main screw on the shutter speed dial was also loose...I don't think I was the first 'have a go repairer' to have a look inside!!!


IMG_2437 by David Helmore, on Flickr

Picture 3 - So I mentioned that top screw was loose and not connected to anything. When I first took the covering off the camera a small piece of metal came out. Over time and by process of elimination I figured that the loose screw on the top should connect to this piece. I tried different orientations of this piece (see below for where I thought it looked right!) but it is highly likely it is not in the correct position. I'm not really sure what purpose this piece has, but chances are it is connected to the slow speeds!!!


IMG_2441 by David Helmore, on Flickr

The pictures definitely make this easier!!!

 

[Dez]

Looks like you're making good progress.

There is a common misconception that this kind of problem is caused by the second curtain's hanging up. That's not the case- it's the first curtain that is stalled. You can see in your second picture that the second curtain has not been released yet, as the catch is still being retained by the black pawl. The problem now is to understand why the first curtain hasn't completed its travel.

One common cause of this is crud on the bearing surfaces that will retard the first curtain to the point where the extra load added by the mechanism to raise the slow speed flag (in the upper red circle of your 2nd picture) is enough to stop its travel. That can happen, but such a problem will usually cause the shutter to hang until the button is released at other shutter speeds as well. Note that it is quite hard to get all the congealed grease out by simply flooding the mechanism, and completely dismantling it is quite a job. If you have thoroughly cleaned and re-lubricated the mechanism, that's probably not your problem.

The brake could be the issue, but that is unlikely, as it's pretty simple and tends not to change with time.

People tend to jump to the conclusion that the problem is insufficient tension in the shutter springs. Unless someone who doesn't know what he's doing has been messing with the tension, that's unlikely. If the second curtain has enough tension to operate a clean slow speed escapement so that the one second setting actually takes one second, its tension is in the ballpark. If the second curtain spring hasn't degraded over the years, why expect that the first curtain spring would?

That leaves the part I called the lifter spring, and the vertical shaft that lifts the slow speed flag. As you have the camera apart, verify that the shaft can move up and down smoothly and with very little force. The spring at the top should only be tight enough to ensure that the shaft seats properly in any position of the camera. Making it push too hard will increase the drag on the first curtain at the end of its travel. That leaves the lifter spring itself. If there is roughness on the raised surface, crud under it, or the raised part has been bent up too far, you will have problems. The raised part needs to be just high enough to ensure that the lifter spring pushes the shaft all the way up when the first curtain has completed its travel, enabling the slow speed flag to engage the second curtain and hold it while the escapement winds up, no higher. There is nothing to be gained by having the lifter spring pushed hard against the bottom plate by the pin on the rotating disk. If you take the lifter spring out, and you still have the problem, your issue is with the rotating shutter mechanism itself, and more disassembly and cleaning is called for.

About that little piece of metal held on by the screw. I forget what it is, but I don't think it is involved with the slow speeds. I suspect it is merely a retainer to locate the edge of the body shell.

Keep us posted on your adventure in camera mechanics.

Cheers,
Dez