Leica IIIa repair - time to call in some help!

This is an intriguing but frustrating thread. As mentioned, my IIIa had the slow-speeds-work-only-when-the-shutter-button-is-released problem also. I tweaked the position of the lifter spring, and tried burnishing where the pin comes in contact with it -- now, the slow speeds don't work at all. That is, even when I lift my finger from the shutter button, the second curtain will not release at all with the slow speeds. So why would this be worse now?
 
I may have named that problem wrong. The slow speeds can't really be said to be working when the button is released, as the shutter remains open all the time the button is depressed.

What exactly does it do when you release the button? Does the curtain run immediately, or not operate at all? What happens at other shutter speeds, especially Z?
When the shutter release comes up, the pawl shown in Davidhel's second picture rises up to allow the second curtain to operate. That's how the shutter gets closed in the "Z" bulb position. If there is something wrong with the large spring on the bottom, (the one at the back of the camera), or the small one under the top cover which pushes down on the pawl, it might not rise far enough to clear the catch on the rotating shutter mechanism. It's also possible that the pawl or the rod to which it is attached are bent. Please try the experiment of taking the lifter spring out altogether and firing the shutter. It should operate at about 1/30 without lifting the button.

Nick, are you comfortable with pulling the top on your camera? If so, I may be able to walk you through a diagnosis.

Cheers,
Dez
 
Dez, I don't know whether those questions were directed at me or not. I can tell you that the first curtain runs immediately on my camera. It used to be (i.e. before I started playing with the lifter) that the second shutter would run once I lifted my finger from the shutter -- the slow speed escapement would start running at that point. Now, nothing happens. Definitely, the pin seems to stop when it first encounters the lifter spring, while in non-delayed-action speeds (1/30 and higher) the pin travels that much farther so as to press down (or up, I guess is more accurate) the lifter spring and release the second curtain. I tried manually pressing the lifter spring down, but that has no effect on how far the pin travels. It's as if the first curtain does not travel with the same velocity when the shutter is set to the slower speeds. But again, why the second curtain doesn't move at all now is a real puzzlement -- I can't believe the exact location of the lifter spring relative to the pin (I'm talking small fractions of a millimeter here) would make any difference.

So I'm concluding the real culprit is not the lifter spring but rather something in the top mechanism -- though I'd really like to get the shutter at least back to where it was (second curtain releasing when I lift the shutter button).

To answer your last question -- the main concern I have with removing the top cover is the eyepiece bezels, particularly the rear viewfinder eyepiece bezel, which is so thin that I honestly don't think I can get a purchase on it. (It's also a little bent.) As for the two front bezels, don't I have to remove not only the bezels but the front glass immediately behind the bezels? That task, too, strikes me as a bear, particularly considering the lefthand one (viewed from the front) controls vertical RF adjustment too.
 
Yes, Nick, that was about your IIIa.

I agree that it is very unlikely that touching the lifter spring would have this effect, as the second curtain release pawl is not really related to it. Does the camera work properly and consistently on the Z setting? That is the closest circumstance to the 1/20, where the first curtain travels all the way to the end before the second curtain is released. Check that the first curtain travels all the way to the end at the Z position as evidenced by the rotating disk. Also, please try the experiment of removing the lifter spring and firing the shutter.

I understand your reluctance to take the top off- it's not all that difficult, but can be rather fiddly. Do you know the last time the camera had a CLA? Crud in the mechanism can overshadow all other likely problems.

Cheers,
Dez
 
Dez, I suspect crud in the mechanism is at the root of this; this camera had been sitting buried in a box at a camera store for many years -- the previous owner had spray painted the whole thing black and removed the vulcanite, so it's entirely possible the crud of ages and black enamel found its way inside. The wind knob is not effortless the way Barnacks usually are, so it does need a CLA. It's an absolute wonder to me that the optics are clear and the shutter curtains in good shape.

All the same, I was hoping I could get the slow speeds working without taking the top off. (And as mentioned, I'm flummoxed as to why just playing with the lifter spring a bit now causes the slow speeds to not engage at all, where before, as mentioned, they'd kick in once you lift your finger from the shutter.)

On the Z setting -- nothing doing. The first curtain opens fully and that's it, just like the slow speeds.

I removed the lifter spring. With the shutter on the slow speeds and Z, it just hangs open. I worked the small pin that is pushed upward by the lifter spring and sometimes that would cause the shutter to fire at around 1/30, but normal state is that the second curtain does not trip at all.
 
Interesting. So something is jamming the second curtain retaining pawl. It's going to have to come apart. Please check the PM I sent.

Sounds like a good cosmetic restoration project for you, Nick. Strip the chrome, use some good paint, and something bizarre from Cameraleather.

Cheers,
dez
 
Nick, these old Leicas depend upon the balance of spring forces from top and bottom, as well as free, uncrudded movement of parts for proper operation. There's one more thing I would like you to try. Try the Z and slow speeds operation while putting a fair amount of finger pressure about 1/2" from the wind end of the other long spring, the one at the back of the camera. If that isn't exerting enough pressure on the shaft that connects to the second curtain release pawl, it can have the exact effect you are seeing. You will notice increased resistance to pushing the shutter button. Don't overdo it, but make sure there is no slack in the position of the spring.

Cheers,
Dez
 
Applying pressure as you describe causes the shutter to trip instantaneously, and at what appears to be 1/1000 or something like it. When I apply the pressure in that spot after tripping the shutter (so the shutter hangs open), the slow speed escapement kicks in at the set slow speed. Note that at T or Z, though, the second curtain closes at whatever the set speed is on the slow speed dial (T is 1 second).

So I'm not sure just what this is telling us. You say you sent a PM?
 
Dez said:
Interesting. So something is jamming the second curtain retaining pawl. It's going to have to come apart. Please check the PM I sent.

Sounds like a good cosmetic restoration project for you, Nick. Strip the chrome, use some good paint, and something bizarre from Cameraleather.

Cheers,
dez
Click to expand...

Actually, I was able to remove the paint on the top with my fingernail and toothpicks; it didn't adhere well. I needed to use a citrus-based solvent on the bottom plate, though. So now the black paint is only where the vulcanite used to be. I have an Aki-Asahi black covering to apply to it once I strip the paint. What will make that tricky is that along the way, the camera had an aftermarket flash synch installed right about where the self timer is on the later III models, so I'll have to measure very carefully and cut a hole in the covering. (The synch worked initially but now does not; I'd actually like to get it working again.)
 
That spring holds the second curtain latch pawl up and out of the way. When you press the shutter button, the spring is pushed down allowing the pawl to drop down and block the second curtain latch. When the first curtain comes to the end of its travel a cam pushes the pawl out of the way allowing the second curtain to release, starting the slow speed timer.

If something is holding up the first curtain, the cam never opens up the pawl and the second curtain doesn't release. When you release the shutter button, the pawl is supposed to move out of the way and the second curtain will fire then. But not on your camera. So it looks like you have at least two things going on here, and I suspect it will not be practical to try to diagnose any further or do any meaningful adjustments until everything is clean. I just re-sent the PM- looks like I screwed it up somehow.

Cheers,
Dez
 
I'm still working my way through the info posted by Dez!. After a bit more cleaning (but still not enough) I was able to establish that the slow speed rod was moving freely. On closer observation I have also found that the 'flag' on top of the camera (circle by the 'R' on my first pic) isn't 'engaging' high enough. Generally what happens is the slow speeds will engage and time correctly if I raise this flag by a fraction of a mm with a screw driver - so I think the next step for me could be to slightly raise the tension on that slow speed spring on the base of the camera. However, even with this the 1/8 still times at 1/20 most of the time...so the slow speed mechanism will need a more thorough clean as many of you have already suggested!

Nick - I understand your frustration! Just to add, I too was concerned about removing those viewfinder / rangefinder windows. For me, that part was pretty easy. Check out the wrenches offered by 'Nobbysparrrow' on ebay - I used one of these with a square of inner tube rubber from a bike. Infact, from memory the square of inner tube rubber was enough (without the wrench). Its amazing the grip it will give you!

Hang in there - I feel your pain!
 
Hi, Dave. You are on the right track, but there is a caveat. Don't increase the lifter spring pressure if it already touches the base of the camera when the shutter is discharged- you will just be buying the original problem again. Adjust the spring without having it bottom out, and then if you meed more, you can ever so carefully bend the lever that holds the flag.

Microtools is another excellent source of the ring spanners you want to have if you are going to service Leicas.
http://www.micro-tools.com/


Cheers,
Dez
 
I've gone back a few steps!!!

So I decided to focus more on cleaning that lifter spring and decided not to make any adjustments to tension quite yet. I removed this...


IMG_2455 by David Helmore, on Flickr

and cleaned out a lot of muck from directly under it. Things were looking good. I reattach this part, fire the shutter...and....


IMG_2456 by David Helmore, on Flickr

...the curtains have gone and the shutter is no longer operable..!! Actually, the curtains still look good, but the ribbon connected to the first curtain is no longer connected to the spool.....

I'm not giving up, but this repair has now got a bit more complex!!!!

I've found a few articles on line about replacing shutter curtains - if you have any particular recommendations of good instructions feel free to post them!! I'm wondering if I can get away with reattaching the ribbon if it hasn't torn...looks like I will need to dismantle a bit more...On the positive side it does mean that I get to clean a bit more thoroughly!. I'm assuming that any work on the shutter curtains is going to involve removing 'all tension from both curtains'

I appreciate this is now a more complex task, and my gut feeling is telling me to purchase a beat up fed 1 or zorki 1 to practice on first and then return to the Leica? What do you think?...I've got this far, I've invested an insane amount of hours (!!!), I can't give up....I've also had a lot of fun!! HEELPPPP!!!
 
My advice: try to relocate the ribbon without dismantling the whole shutter crate. You'll have to dismount the upper shutter shield (or what this part is called). I don't think that the ribbon has snapped, it looks as if it has unglued.
Take some tweezers, get that ribbon in place again and reglue it to the spool.
You propably want to remove the tension from the shutter (you don't have to remove the whole tension, just loose it to the point that the spools are really loose).
It's not hard to do, and resetting the tension from scratch is also easy.

I've done that whole operation on a Zorki and a Fed. It's annoying to get the spools into place if you have to dismantle the whole shutter crate. But it's doable.
On my IIIf I've replaced a shutter curtain without dismantling the crate at all, this also works 😉

Here's a great instruction: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/leicashutter.pdf

For that spool you only have to take care to reglue the ribbon so that both ribbons have basically the same length, so that the curtain is not slightly tilted if there's tension on it.
 
I took my IIIa apart to give it clean up. Your post reminded me that I still had not got around to doing mine fully. I did the slow speeds when I got the camera a few years ago but never got around to the main shutter assembly as all was working quite fine. Sadly my shutter is in bad condition and leaks light on winding when I check with a LED lamp.
 
Well, I took a break from the IIIa, got a couple of beat up Zorki 1's and have built up my confidence again on those! I got the IIIa out again tonight, located the end of the ribbon and threaded it back through. The ribbon still looks good, just the glue had gone (and the other one is only just holding on..). So my question is, which glue should I use to reattach them? My initial feeling is Araldite....but thought it best to double check before taking the plunge!!

Then if all goes well, I will be back to whereI was a month ago.....!
 
Araldite is probably a bit too hard. I believe the US recommendation is Elmer's glue, but I could never find that in the UK.

I use a good quality contact adhesive and spread a thin coat on the roller then attach the tape. One product I found very good was a shoe repair adhesive by Bostick - it allows a bit of "wiggle" before it finally grabs and dries.
 
So...what happened to the 3a?!

When the curtain tape went I decided to put the project on hold and do some more learning. I got a couple of Zorki 1's with issues...and to be fair they still have issues and could both use a new set of curtains. However, I did get them running again. I then tackled a well used 3c with some of the same issues - slow speeds not working and 1/30 acting the same as B. That one was a pretty straight forward fix after soaking the slow speed mechanism and thorough cleaning. The turning point there was a single drop of oil at the top of the main curtain drum....

I then returned to the 3a.. On closer inspection the curtain tapes were too short and the curtains were incorrectly installed - a small gap in the curtain was very visible when you wound on. So I extended the tapes and corrected the curtains and reattached the tapes. After shutter tensioning and reassembly all shutter speeds now work correctly!!!!

If everything continues to work after I leave it for a few days I will just need to get that rangefinder sorted out and it's done!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
Nikon F Shutter Speeds Adjustment 1/60th and 1/500th
Replies
0
Views
100
Howie1922
H
J
Need help with fed 1 shutter curtain
Replies
2
Views
135
jimsnon
J
E
Exakta VX v 4.2 Stuck Shutter Speed Dial Repair
Replies
4
Views
192
Valkir1987
Valkir1987
H
Nikon S Curtain Travel Times and Curtain Bounce
Replies
1
Views
201
Timmyjoe
Timmyjoe
ravenxarmy
Rollei 35 : Slow shutters same as B
Replies
5
Views
393
zeitoun
Z
Back
Top Bottom