Leica IIIC Rangefinder - What's Fair?

[Liquid Fusion]

Hi. Bought (2) Leica IIIC camera bodies off Ebay. Tested the rangefinders on each with a Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 Leica Screw lens.

First camera body rangefinder focusing is clear and crisp - you can see focusing at different points very clearly in any light. The 2nd Leica IIIC (with a new shutter) focusing is very faint with the rangefinder.

The 2nd camera body is described on Ebay as "LEICA IIIC SCREW MOUNT BODY IN VERY GOOD WORKING CONDITION. New SHUTTER! Camera is fully functional. And - as you can see from the photos - in very good to excellent physical condition. No rust. Minimal scruffs and scratches on exterior of camera. All controls work as designed."

My question to you - Is the 2nd auction not described correctly? Good working condition is not just shutter and timer, but also the inside rangefinder.

I emailed a reputable Leica camera repair tech and he said to fix the Rangefinder he'd have to do a CLA costing 275.00. Plus 45.00 if the RF split beam has decayed.

Do I have a right to ask the seller to refund part of what I paid as the ad is not fully true?

The 2nd camera is in good shape. New shutter. Have the repair receipt from seller. Its just that it's very hard to see focusing with Rangefinder from Camera #2 vs camera #1 with same lens.

What would you do? Thanks.

 

[Jerevan]

If the rangefinder is weak it is not in "good working condition" to me. But since he does not mention the rangefinder contrast, I guess it is very much up to the sellers honesty to admit this issue and give you a partial refund.

Does camera number 1 work as it should?

 

[mcfingon]

After a number of purchases, I've made it a policy to only buy lenses that say "no haze" and bodies that say "rangefinder strong" or "contrasty". I think it's going to be harder to complain successfully if the item isn't specifically described.

 

[btgc]

Some sellers genuinely don't know what working conditions is. Shutter runs at all speeds, "rings and knobs move" - so camera works. You can see picture in VF, right? So what to complain about?

For me, either pay top $$ for properly (in details) described stuff from photo dealer who warrants his offers or lowball from someone who has no clue and sells "AS IS" to deal with issues (and I don't expect to get issue-free gear from someone who has picked it out from basement or drawer).

So, in my opinion, it's not only seller. 2nd camera comes from someone I couldn't call a camera dealer as much as I wanted it.

 

[Ranchu]

I don't think you have a right to money off per the terms of the listing. I never buy from sellers who don't accept returns. This is exactly the type of ebay purchase to avoid, ONLY buy from sellers who accept returns. On the other hand, with only 16 feedbacks, seller is going to want to keep you happy... 275 seems way high to me for a new beam splitter but what do I know about IIIc's ? I would ask to return it for a full refund, but don't mention feedback, feedback threats are against ebay's policies and they'll report you, (I assume).

 

[goamules]

The seller probably didn't know what his camera was missing, having never owned another one. He thought it was fine, and you would have too, if you didn't compare it to another. An individual camera owner is not expected to know how his one camera compares to "the best" out there, he's not a camera store.

If you don't like it, try to send it back for a full refund. Don't punish the guy because he didn't compare his camera to the second one you bought. How could he?

 

[splitimageview]

All Ebay sales can be returned.

As a rule I assume all Barnacks will require shutter work and viewfinder cleaning and possibly beam splitter replacement. Unless these are specifically mentioned in the listing as to condition, which is uncommon.

Generally speaking many sellers don't know enough to describe accurately, but these are often the best deals if you approach them with the right strategy.

 

[splitimageview]

I just bought a wartime IIIc that turned out to be fantastic cosmetically, beautiful chrome and vulcanite, red curtain, based on that strategy and am very happy even though it will need shutter adjustment.

 

[Liquid Fusion]

From reading these posts, it seems it's buyer beware about vintage cameras. That we are buying them "AS IS" is to have them professionally brought up to spec by an expensive CLA.

These are all very powerful words:

BODY IN VERY GOOD WORKING CONDITION.
- New SHUTTER!
- Camera is fully functional
- In very good to excellent physical condition (And - as you can see from the photos)
- No rust
- Minimal scruffs and scratches on exterior of camera
- All controls work as designed

"All controls work as designed." Clear English here. Except rangefinders 60 years old are acceptable to barely be seen when focusing because that is normal for an old camera? As I'm new to Leica IIIC's, I'm not aware internal rangefinders have problems that make one seem great and the other barely there.

As a musician, I have a vintage analog / digital recording studio. Reel to reel tape machines 60 years old that work immediately when the juice it turned "ON"!! When I say, "very good to excellent physical condition" - it means when you apply power, the mic, the pre-amp, the compressor, the computer better work 100%.

Maybe the only way to buy a Leica vintage camera is understand one has to to first find a basic decent body expecting to have it cleaned and brought up to state of the art. Count the extra 275.00 CLA cost into the true price of the camera. Then addon buying lens(s) + cases + viewfinders + shutter releases + B&W changing bags + developing tanks + metal negative reels (Hewes) + B&W chemicals + dark plastic storage bottles + funnels.

Thinking of keeping this camera. New Shutter. Have receipt. It's solid. Feels right. I can put a Voigtlander SNAPSHOT SKOPAR 25mm F4 on it - non-rangefinder coupled lens. Set Sunny 16 for F16 = 1/ASA and adjust to use no lower than F8 to keep Depth of Field in focus from 8 feet to infinity. Add the Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 to the 1st camera with the better rangefinder. Like both cameras to be equally interchangable body wise. I know - I'll have to pay CLA for that.

Very True: if there are any situations on Ebay "not as described," auctions can be turned around. The words said, "very good to excellent physical condition." Integrity is on the line. What's next - double super excellent? Absolutely amazing with extra lens caps on top? Excellent beyond your wildest dreams? (Lap Dancer / Escorts not included).

What about feedback?

Do I give Positive? Neutral? Negative? What I couldn't "see" - until I bought a rangefinder coupled lens - is the Achilles heel of Camera #2.0 Does this count - My lack of experience? - Seller taking advantage of hidden features? What feedback would YOU give if you were in this deal? (Never threatened Seller with bad feedback).

Learning alot here. Thanks.

 

[Ranchu]

I find that around 50% of camera equipment I buy off ebay is not as described. Whatever the reason, it happens with consistency no matter what kind of seller. So, I have to protect myself, which means I don't assume words the seller says in the listing mean what I think they mean, only what is stated. . I also don't keep gear around because now that I have it in my hands it's pretty cool, even though I unexpectedly have to get it fixed. I send it back if at all possible, it's not my problem.

If you want to return it, contact the seller and say that you feel the camera is not as described and you want to return it. Write out their address and ask if this is the address they want it sent back to. If they say no, leave negative feedback and move on.

 

[Ranchu]

Here is a good example of what to avoid. Notice how assiduously the seller avoids stating and working condition, they have chosen "Item condition: Pre owned" which is for clothing and says it's used, but unlike the "Used:" for cameras, doesn't also say it's working. This seller is going out of their way to dump unknown junk in your lap, and get you to pay for the privilege. Seller does not take returns, which is the best indicator of someone you don't want to buy anything from.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ricoh-KR30S...tax-K-Mount-/201438094198?hash=item2ee6a56376

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

There is no guaranteed, 100% perfect way to buy a used Leica; especially since they can be and sometimes are up to 90 or so years old. Well, there is but no dealer will let you walk away with it on loan for a month...

Luckily many offer some sort of guarantee but it means waiting a while after buying & testing the camera with film to get it fully functional and spending money on the test film and return postage.

I think you have to go into it with your eyes open and realise that dealers cannot test them thoroughly and gamble on/hope only one or two will be repaired under guarantee. Imagine the cost of the camera with a fair profit on it and a charge for a complete overhaul etc.

With people who are not dealers you have to be the one gambling or hoping. Also a lot of sellers have no idea what they are selling, perhaps someone has died and they've found the camera and so on. (What my family will do with my AGRIF when I'm gone worries me, but I use it and so on.)

And I think most of us understand that second-hand can be a bit dodgy, deliberately or innocently. Auctions also make it worse, it's often cheaper to throw the camera away compared to putting a film through it and then opening the auction below the film etc's cost...

Regards, David

PS Allow for lens and body caps on your list of things.

 

[Liquid Fusion]

Hi,

- There is no guaranteed, 100% perfect way to buy a used Leica.....
- I think you have to go into it with your eyes open.....
- a lot of sellers have no idea what they are selling..........
- second-hand can be a bit dodgy, deliberately or innocently......
Regards, David

PS Allow for lens and body caps on your list of things.

Great advice!! It's the real world again!! Bought (2) Leica body caps + both lenses have front / rear lens caps.

Angry Photographer has a great Youtube video on cleaning lenses w/ QTips (Cotton)

 

[Liquid Fusion]

I find that around 50% of camera equipment I buy off ebay is not as described.

Wow. Didn't realize it was that bad.... Just like walking the streets of NYC. Good and bad. Must keep eyes wide open / be aware.

 

[goamules]

You need to understand some basic camera facts:

1. Leica cameras are precision instruments, needing skilled adjustments every 8-10 years.
2. Leica cameras are vintage antiques, 60 years old. Optics fade, brass gears break a tooth, things jiggle loose in shipping.

Now you need to understand ebay facts:

1. A seller is not an expert. He may have never handled another Leica before, to compare it to. He may not know all the functions, or how to do advanced functionality checking like a skilled photographer of antique rangefinders.
2. You are buying something like you do at a yard sale. It is as is (see above section). It is not a "market" or "store" selling new items, that has duplicate inventory to hand you another.
3. You cannot expect to pay very cheap prices (buying a Leica today at $250 is about 1/10th of what they cost when new, adjusted for today's currency) for an antique, precision instrument, then complain if it doesn't work like it did in 1952.

You buy on ebay because it's cheaper than getting one from a real dealer, like Peter Loy or KEH. You are trying to get a treasure at a cheap price. You cannot then complain if it's not the score you thought it was. If you want perfect, buy from a dealer that knows what they're doing, don't treat private sellers at a virtual yard sale like they are dealers.

 

[Liquid Fusion]

You need to understand some basic camera facts:
1. Leica cameras are precision instruments, needing skilled adjustments every 8-10 years.
2. Leica cameras are vintage antiques, 60 years old. Optics fade, brass gears break a tooth, things jiggle loose in shipping.
.....If you want perfect, buy from a dealer that knows what they're doing, don't treat private sellers at a virtual yard sale like they are dealers.

Interesting Leica's need adjusting every 10 years. Must depend on well how one treats their gear. I have a Telefunken V76 mic pre made in 1950's. Vintage German. Still working as the Beatles recorded with them (I wan't around then).

Yes - optics fade over 60 years. Say that when selling if that's what's actually going on. Honesty and Integrity must mean something: that's why feedback ratings exist on Ebay. Nothing wrong in buying at a flea market. Just don't say something is Excellent when it isn't - then turn around and say you really mean - Excellent for its age.

I looked at the Seller's Feedback rating and took his words at face value.

 

[Mudman]

Roberts comes with a 6 month warranty. If it's not up to your standards, reach out and talk with the seller. It also looks like it's been modified with a PC sync connector btw.

 

[CameraQuest]

Hi. Bought (2) Leica IIIC camera bodies off Ebay. Tested the rangefinders on each with a Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 Leica Screw lens.

First camera body rangefinder focusing is clear and crisp - you can see focusing at different points very clearly in any light. The 2nd Leica IIIC (with a new shutter) focusing is very faint with the rangefinder.

The 2nd camera body is described on Ebay as "LEICA IIIC SCREW MOUNT BODY IN VERY GOOD WORKING CONDITION. New SHUTTER! Camera is fully functional. And - as you can see from the photos - in very good to excellent physical condition. No rust. Minimal scruffs and scratches on exterior of camera. All controls work as designed."

My question to you - Is the 2nd auction not described correctly? Good working condition is not just shutter and timer, but also the inside rangefinder.

I emailed a reputable Leica camera repair tech and he said to fix the Rangefinder he'd have to do a CLA costing 275.00. Plus 45.00 if the RF split beam has decayed.

Do I have a right to ask the seller to refund part of what I paid as the ad is not fully true?

The 2nd camera is in good shape. New shutter. Have the repair receipt from seller. Its just that it's very hard to see focusing with Rangefinder from Camera #2 vs camera #1 with same lens.

What would you do? Thanks.

Don't waste your time or money on the 2nd camera. The seller did not describe it accurately. If the seller will not take it back, use the Ebay or even the Paypal guarantees to get your money back.

Stephen

 

[Corran]

Yeah, just return it. Looks like you paid a premium for what was understood as "excellent."

I bought a Leica III (1935) last year for $100 (including a 5cm Elmar) from eBay, advertised to be in "unknown condition." I paid what I expected to pay to have a CLA done and still be a happy camper. It came working well, except the slow speeds, which then freed up after firing the shutter a hundred times. So the caveats are all well and good, but for my money, I prefer buying on the cheap from unknown sources, rather than nebulous cameras advertised as just "excellent." Most of the time it's in pretty good condition.

When I sell I meticulously describe every part and function to make sure I describe it accurately.

 

[Dez]

When you see an eBay item that interests you, but the description is inadequate, ask specific questions that require specific answers. Assume "untested" means "not working". If the vendor really does not know, you may get a great bargain but the risk is high. I will only buy in such circumstances if I'm fairly sure I can do the repair.

Cheers,
Dez