Leica IIIf mismatched dials

[shawn]

I picked up a IIIf that has mismatched shutter speed dials. I assume one of them was replaced at some point, which would be the original?

Slow speeds (1/2 and 1 second) were sticking. I cleaned the escapement and now they are looking good. T acts like 1 second though. Vulcanite popped off putting it back together so I'm replacing that. Rangefinder has good contrast, viewfinder has a little bit of haze but I'm not sure I want to tackle pulling the top to get in there.

Shawn

 

[Vince Lupo]

If it's a red dial, then the split should be at 1/25, therefore the top dial is the original. Black dial split at 1/30.

BTW I'm assuming this body is a self-timer model?

 

[raydm6]

That's interesting. Later model IIIf (1955).

Wondering what would cause such a mismatch. Perhaps rebuilt from spare parts?

 

[shawn]

If it's a red dial, then the split should be at 1/25, therefore the top dial is the original. Black dial split at 1/30.

BTW I'm assuming this body is a self-timer model?

Thanks, it is a self timer model. Just leaving that off until I put the new covering on it.

Shawn

 

[farlymac]

Just did a search on eBay, and didn't see any unless you would buy a parts body. DAG might have one for sale.


PF

 

[xayraa33]

By serial number if the top plate is original then its from a black dial production batch from 1955, so one would assume that the top high shutter speed dial is not original .

 

[shawn]

By serial number if the top plate is original then its from a black dial production batch from 1955, so one would assume that the top high shutter speed dial is not original .

I though the black dials were made up to around 1952 and then were replaced by red dial cameras? This camera has a red dial and per the cameraquest serial number list was factory original with the self timer.

Shawn

 

[farlymac]

By serial number if the top plate is original then its from a black dial production batch from 1955, so one would assume that the top high shutter speed dial is not original .

The red dial cameras without self timers started in 1952 at 615001 and ended at 685000 in 1953. Cameras after that (1954) came with the self timer. Occasionally you will find cameras in that serial number range that had self timers added either in Wetzlar, or another repair facility. The OP's camera was made in 1955, and is definitely a red dial. The black dials ended in 1951.

PF

 

[Pál_K]

My IIIf RD ST for comparison:

 

[xayraa33]

The red dial cameras without self timers started in 1952 at 615001 and ended at 685000 in 1953. Cameras after that (1954) came with the self timer. Occasionally you will find cameras in that serial number range that had self timers added either in Wetzlar, or another repair facility. The OP's camera was made in 1955, and is definitely a red dial. The black dials ended in 1951.

PF

This lists BD IIIf cameras made as late as 1955

Unless it is a typo error it is not unheard of Leitz getting rid of their remaining stock of old style black dial shutter IIIf chassis in one late made batch of BD IIIf cameras.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Leica_IIIf


They did the same thing with mid 1970s M4 cameras, the M5 was the new kid on the block at that time but any remaining M4 guts were made into black chrome M4 cameras in Wetzlar and ELC Midland. I know, as I bought a new ELC Midland assembled black chrome M4 in 1978.

 

[shawn]

Thanks everyone. Just placed an order with DAG for the proper 1/25 slow speed dial.

Shawn

 

[farlymac]

This lists BD IIIf cameras made as late as 1955

Unless it is a typo error it is not unheard of Leitz getting rid of their remaining stock of old style black dial shutter IIIf chassis in one late made batch of BD IIIf cameras.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Leica_IIIf

They did the same thing with mid 1970s M4 cameras, the M5 was the new kid on the block at that time but any remaining M4 guts were made into black chrome M4 cameras in Wetzlar and ELC Midland. I know, as I bought a new ELC Midland assembled black chrome M4 in 1978.

There are a lot of discrepancies in various lists, and the one I was looking at doesn't give the BD or RD designation to the numbers, so who knows? I've also been buying Leica literature on the IIIf line, and the usual mention of serial numbers states the black dials were not made after 1952. That said, until I got my hands on a 1971 copy of Theo Kisselbach's "The Leica Book", I could not find a clearly definitive explanation of the sync settings for electronic flash. (1/50 20; T, 1->1/25 0; B 2) Most of them only said (Instant 20; Delayed 0).

PF

 

[xayraa33]

For electronic flash sync for the two different types of IIIf Leicas:

BD= nr. 2 setting at 1/30th of a sec. shutter speed

RD= nr. 0 setting at 1/25th of a sec. shutter speed
or
nr. 20 setting at 1/50th of a sec. shutter speed

I seen many ones of either type that are out of wack and need to be internally adjusted properly for flash use in general and a complete CLA cannot hurt either after of 63 plus years of not being serviced.

 

[farlymac]

For electronic flash sync for the two different types of IIIf Leicas:

BD= nr. 2 setting at 1/30th of a sec. shutter speed

RD= nr. 0 setting at 1/25th of a sec. shutter speed
or
nr. 20 setting at 1/50th of a sec. shutter speed

I seen many ones of either type that are out of wack and need to be internally adjusted properly for flash use in general and a complete CLA cannot hurt either after of 63 plus years of not being serviced.

Mine just came back from a CLA and shutter curtain replacement, so I'm going to give it a try with a Braun 370BVC. If it doesn't work it's no big deal as I hardly use flash anymore, except for the occasional fill. Has to be easier than that adjustable sync cord on the Contax.

PF

 

[xayraa33]

Mine just came back from a CLA and shutter curtain replacement, so I'm going to give it a try with a Braun 370BVC. If it doesn't work it's no big deal as I hardly use flash anymore, except for the occasional fill. Has to be easier than that adjustable sync cord on the Contax.

PF

I seen many of the IIIf cameras out of sync adjustment for electronic flash, most will sync at the shutter curtain running time of 1/30 for the BD and dial set at 0 and for the RD models it is half the shutter running time of 1/25 and dial set at 0 ```these are not factory specs that is for sure

Many are so out of wack that they never sync at any shutter speed or dial setting with electronic flash

 

[Pál_K]

Other than experimenting with film, I suppose the only way to determine if the sync is correct (or to find a speed and sync combination), is to remove the lens, point the flash at the shutter, trip the release, and observe whether you see a clear film gate or part of a curtain showing when the flash fires.

 

[shawn]

Wonder if you could just slip some photo paper behind the film gate and then point the flash into the body (no lens) to see if you get an even exposure on the paper?

Shawn

 

[MrRom92]

Just do it with a sheet of white paper, like you’d use in your printer. the flash bounces back and reflects off the paper, you’ll be able to see if it reflects the full frame or only part of it. Making a high-FPS video recording (iPhone) of the shutter can help you check frame-by-frame exactly what’s going on. My black dial IIIf syncs with electronic flash at 2, as expected

 

[Rob-F]

From experience and familiarity with the IIIf, I'm sure that the top dial is correct for a IIIf in this serial number range. The slow speed dial is wrong.

 

[shawn]

Just an update... I got the correct dial from DAG. However, I don't see how it is removed? I have a parts IIIF and with the cap off and even the slow speed adjustment screws out the dial is on tight. On the plus side my new covering finally arrived.

Shawn