JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Kyle said:
What Kyle writes is definitely true, but "BGN" grade covers a lot of ground and it is possible to get a body that really looks, well, like it's been through the wars...maybe it has. And, even higher grade RFs can arrive with hazy finders, so there is some element of chance. One suggestion: the KEH staff will pull a camera from the warehouse and give you a personal eyeballing of the camera (their eyeballs, not yours) over the phone and will email pictures, so you can get some sense of what's up. That and their 14 day no questions asked return period make purchases pretty much risk free (you only risk is round trip S&H).
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
About "bargain" grade from KEH, I recently had the chance to examine Ken Ford's M3, a "bargain" grade camera from them.
It was pristine...
Granted, Ken feels the film advance is a bit grainy... and it is, but not so that you won't use the camera. It actually feels like it may soften up with a little use.
In other words, you may luck out with a "bargain" Leica that's an eBay "mint" (as someone wrote above).
And... if you're not happy, you can always return it.
BTW, one Leica body I'd like to have is, precisely, the M4-P or the M4-2. For some reason they get a bad rap, but I only get good vibes from these ones.
Have fun shopping!
It was pristine...
Granted, Ken feels the film advance is a bit grainy... and it is, but not so that you won't use the camera. It actually feels like it may soften up with a little use.
In other words, you may luck out with a "bargain" Leica that's an eBay "mint" (as someone wrote above).
And... if you're not happy, you can always return it.
BTW, one Leica body I'd like to have is, precisely, the M4-P or the M4-2. For some reason they get a bad rap, but I only get good vibes from these ones.
Have fun shopping!
x-ray
Veteran
I've owned both M4 and M4-2 plus the M4-P. Nothing wrong with any of them but given a choice I would pick the M4 because it was the peak of M quality with the modern loading feature. Really any M is fine but after the M4 Leica cut corners in the RF/VF and some other components.
davidbivins
Established
I use both. I prefer the M4s for minor reasons: self-timer (much handier than I realized once I was stuck with the M4-2 in a situation where it would have been handy) and lack of engraving on the front. Yes, people are mugged in Brooklyn for their Leicas. I bought the M4-2 primarily because it's black, secondarily because it had been upgraded with M6 framelines (I wanted the 28mm so I wouldn't have to attach a finder). Superficial, I know, but a black camera and black lens are a bit less obtrusive than a chrome-topped camera. I use my two M4s and single M4-2 regularly. I keep different film in each and can just grab the most appropriate body for what I'm shooting.
For what it's worth, the wind lever plastic thingy popped off my M4-2 quite quickly into our relationship. It's been fine since I fixed it, but that's never happened with my M4s.
I think the M4-2 is a good deal. I probably would have bought one first if a decent one had been available when I decided to splurge on an M body. I ended up with two M4s first instead, the M4-2 later.
For what it's worth, the wind lever plastic thingy popped off my M4-2 quite quickly into our relationship. It's been fine since I fixed it, but that's never happened with my M4s.
I think the M4-2 is a good deal. I probably would have bought one first if a decent one had been available when I decided to splurge on an M body. I ended up with two M4s first instead, the M4-2 later.
Rico
Well-known
If you believe a camera is just a light-tight box, I say: God bless you, and here's your M4-2! Other cameras on my shelf have their strengths, but only the M4 can make me smile like a fool.
normclarke
normclarke
Hi All,
Having used both the M4 and M4-2 I found little difference between them. The main disadvantage for me with the M4P would be that the finder in the later models frame lines show a smaller field. It is quite noticeable when compareing the 50mm frames(one on each eye). I had a late model M4-2 so may have been lucky in that it performed perfectly, unlike some experiences listed here. I must add that the M4 from a fondlers point of view is unbeatable.
Cheers,
normclarke.
Having used both the M4 and M4-2 I found little difference between them. The main disadvantage for me with the M4P would be that the finder in the later models frame lines show a smaller field. It is quite noticeable when compareing the 50mm frames(one on each eye). I had a late model M4-2 so may have been lucky in that it performed perfectly, unlike some experiences listed here. I must add that the M4 from a fondlers point of view is unbeatable.
Cheers,
normclarke.
S
Simon Larbalestier
Guest
I use both and find them very much the same in feel, when in actual use - however for aesthetics certainly the M4 is very classic with it's Lecia script. I also prefer the simpler frame-lines of 35/50/90/135 compared to the later models.
Xmas
Veteran
The M4 has nicer script, the M4-2 will need PVC tape to cover up the terrible writing, no mugger is going to steal an M4-2 unless you cover it in black tape so it might be a M6 or M7...
A leiciavit and a M4-2 make a nice pair...
Noel
P.S. You can use the full field of view with a M2 or M4-2 or M4 for 28mm.
A leiciavit and a M4-2 make a nice pair...
Noel
P.S. You can use the full field of view with a M2 or M4-2 or M4 for 28mm.
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Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The M4-2 is a good camera, but some of the earlier ones had problem with "shutter" bounce. If you pick one up today. it most likely has been fixed. The M4 is a classic, but they are all getting on in age. The advantage of the M2/M4-2/M4P and M6 is that the finders can be fixed and the mechanics are the same.
I have found that on the later M4P's and early M6, apart from having a zinc diecast top-plate ( it doesn't dent, it cracks!), the rewind knob can easily be bent out of shape and it is very difficult to straighten it out. On the M4 and the earlier M4P's it was still brass and more malleable than the cast ones.
They are all good "shooting" cameras and after a CLA (clean,lube and adjust) they should last for a couple of more decades.
Most of the chrome M4's went to non-pro's and they usually took some care of them. The black paint M4's are worn and might need expensive service to replace advance gear. Brass is smooth, but it also wears faster than the later steel gears. The "harshest" M I ever used was a pair of MP's in the 60's. The hardened steel gears felt like they were chrushing rocks! The smoothest M i have is a dead heat between a couple of M2's and the latest version, the MP. Both will click and advance like stroking silk!
I have found that on the later M4P's and early M6, apart from having a zinc diecast top-plate ( it doesn't dent, it cracks!), the rewind knob can easily be bent out of shape and it is very difficult to straighten it out. On the M4 and the earlier M4P's it was still brass and more malleable than the cast ones.
They are all good "shooting" cameras and after a CLA (clean,lube and adjust) they should last for a couple of more decades.
Most of the chrome M4's went to non-pro's and they usually took some care of them. The black paint M4's are worn and might need expensive service to replace advance gear. Brass is smooth, but it also wears faster than the later steel gears. The "harshest" M I ever used was a pair of MP's in the 60's. The hardened steel gears felt like they were chrushing rocks! The smoothest M i have is a dead heat between a couple of M2's and the latest version, the MP. Both will click and advance like stroking silk!
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
In 1978 my new M4-2 did have curtain bounce which I noticed on my first developed film roll.
the camera was sent back to Midland, where the brake was adjusted and then sent back to me.
after this, the M4-2 was as trouble free as any other M Leica that I used.
these early M4-2s had the bonus of the M4 style mount and release button , and the flare free rf of the older Ms.
I guess Leitz was using up any remaining parts from the previous run of Midland black chrome M4s.
the camera was sent back to Midland, where the brake was adjusted and then sent back to me.
after this, the M4-2 was as trouble free as any other M Leica that I used.
these early M4-2s had the bonus of the M4 style mount and release button , and the flare free rf of the older Ms.
I guess Leitz was using up any remaining parts from the previous run of Midland black chrome M4s.
edodo
Well-known
I would say that if you're in for a black and stealthy camera go for the M4-2 or M4P and get rid of the red dot! I have a M4 and it is an absolute beauty, but it is not black. I wanted to paint it black, but after a conversation with Peter at CRR Luton, I realize it wasn't possible for me. Still the M4 is brass geared and is smooth like lady's skin.
Cheers
Cheers
kevin m
Veteran
It comes down to money. If you don't mind spending the extra $400 or so that an M4 will get over an M4-2 in the same condition, and the full engraving and classic looks appeal to you, then do it. But the M4-2 gets an underserved bad rap. The bad ones have likely been sorted out by now, and it has beautiful, 35/135, 50, 90 framelines and vulcanite. It's certainly a nicer camera to use than the M4-P if you like clear, uncluttered framelines. Considering that the M4-2 can be had in nice shape for $600, I'd say it's a bargain in the Leica world.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
kevin m said:It comes down to money. If you don't mind spending the extra $400 or so that an M4 will get over an M4-2 in the same condition, and the full engraving and classic looks appeal to you, then do it. But the M4-2 gets an underserved bad rap. The bad ones have likely been sorted out by now, and it has beautiful, 35/135, 50, 90 framelines and vulcanite. It's certainly a nicer camera to use than the M4-P if you like clear, uncluttered framelines. Considering that the M4-2 can be had in nice shape for $600, I'd say it's a bargain in the Leica world.
shhhhhhh, do not say that last sentence too loud.
colyn
ישו משיח
I've used both and prefer the M4.
Beemermark
Veteran
The M4-2's had a lot of problems. I had one 20 years ago, spent a fortune on repairing it twice and got rid of it. You need to ask a leica repair person about all the issues. I'd never buy another one. The M4's (and M3's) were the best built M's of all the models. That's the reason the price stays up there. Pick up an M4 and wind it, pick up a M4-2 and wind it, you'll notice the difference right off. The M4-P supposely corrected all the problems of the M4-2.
M4's with user cosmetics are selling for $700~800 in the US. Get a CLA for $100 and it's a way better camera than anything else without a meter. I bought an M6 when they came out and ended up selling it and keeping my M4 & M4R meter. Recently I bought an M7 and like it a lot.
M4's with user cosmetics are selling for $700~800 in the US. Get a CLA for $100 and it's a way better camera than anything else without a meter. I bought an M6 when they came out and ended up selling it and keeping my M4 & M4R meter. Recently I bought an M7 and like it a lot.
colyn
ישו משיח
Beemermark said:
Who does a CLA for $100?
I currently have a M3 at DAG for CLA and the charge is $290..
jshelly
Established
Just to pile on here,
I'm selling my 5D and buying a BGN M4 from KEH along with an EX+ rigid 50mm cron.
Now the long wait for the mail...
I'm selling my 5D and buying a BGN M4 from KEH along with an EX+ rigid 50mm cron.
Now the long wait for the mail...
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
colyn said:
Not to derail the thread, but why is that? I've heard generally good things about him. Especially for the older leicas.
colyn
ישו משיח
rogue_designer said:
I once sent him a camera for a CLA. He claimed the rf was in need of a complete stripdown and re-silver/re-cement (which was not true). When I told him not to repair it he kept the camera for 9 months.
Through all of this he was extremely rude..
Ororaro
Well-known
colyn said:
He's been so great with me, I just hve to counterbalance what you are saying.
He's CLA'd Two M3 cameras and fixed a totally blacked out finder. Both times we did business, he shipped my cameras back to me BEFORE I even paid him for te jobs.