Leica M4 or Leica M4-2?

Ron (Netherlands) · Nov 11, 2012

Used this beautiful 'Wetzlar' M4-2 for a while but sold it after I found the difference in brightness of the viewfinder between the M4-2 and my other M's to big (the M4-2 was quite a bit darker):

btw never have used a M4 so didn't vote....

Godfrey · Feb 12, 2013

Ron (Netherlands) said:
Used this beautiful 'Wetzlar' M4-2 for a while but sold it after I found the difference in brightness of the viewfinder between the M4-2 and my other M's to big (the M4-2 was quite a bit darker):

btw never have used a M4 so didn't vote....

It probably needed a cleaning. They're old cameras now ... maintenance is important. Mine is now just as bright and clear as my M9, but the framelines are a bit dimmer, by design as has been stated already. 🙂

G

maddoc · Feb 12, 2013

That is a nice copy of a "First type" M4-2 (I don`t know if that classification officially exists...), easily to distinguish from the later M4-2 by the old-style (silver) lens-lock release button and the slotted screw. Later type has cross-head screws and red-dot release button.

Ron (Netherlands) said:
Used this beautiful 'Wetzlar' M4-2 for a while but sold it after I found the difference in brightness of the viewfinder between the M4-2 and my other M's to big (the M4-2 was quite a bit darker):

btw never have used a M4 so didn't vote....

philipus · Feb 13, 2013

Tom A said:
The M4 is a classic, but they are all getting on in age. The advantage of the M2/M4-2/M4P and M6 is that the finders can be fixed and the mechanics are the same.
(...)
On the M4 and the earlier M4P's it was still brass and more malleable than the cast ones.
(...)
The black paint M4's are worn and might need expensive service to replace advance gear.

Is it not possible to fix the finder of an M4? I thought for instance CRR Luton could service M4 viewfinders.

My BP M4 was very dinged and worn...

Then Ton Scherpenborg in Nijmegen serviced it and managed to beat out all dings. The top plate is now perfectly flat, not a trace of the dings (photos here and here). I couldn't believe the difference when the camera returned.

Following service it is very smooth to operate.

gsgary · Feb 16, 2013

I have an M4-2 and love it but just picked this up with all paperwork mint

Spicy · Feb 17, 2013

wow, haven't seen too many chrome M4-Ps (plenty of black chrome ones, though, including mine). looking good.

Godfrey · Feb 17, 2013

gsgary said:
I have an M4-2 and love it but just picked this up with all paperwork mint

Very nice, very clean! Enjoy it!

G

meanstreetshooter · Feb 28, 2013

I have both cameras, but I like the M4 just a little better than the M4-2.

B-9 · Mar 7, 2013

Im pleased with my M4-2, posted this photo in TA subforum also.
I prefer the classic frame lines, and typically use an external VF with wides.
I sold my M4-P paid some bills and bought a used M4-2 going on 8 months.
I can say ive put more miles on the M4-2 my M3 is starting to collect dust.

I still havnt managed to reveal an ungodly amount of brass ;}

Ronald M · Mar 8, 2013

Cameras suffer age related problems such as congealed grease, dried shutter curtains that will start to leak light, and the worst is balsam in the RF mechanism may separate rendering the RF useless.

M4 were built with more lose tolerences, but there were adjustment points built in. The -2 were an attempt at more precise machining so the camera could be assembled and be ready to go. Later ones were ok, early ones had issues.

Someplace along the line, a condenser lens was removed from RF making it flair prone. I do not remember the point, could be M6. I never had problems, others complained. It happened to me one time.

Budget for cla and other repairs just like a used car. Some like the RF de cementing and new shutter curtains and light shields are expensive. Some older M4 have seen heavy professional use and are worn. Be careful.

Later M4-P have the zinc tops identified by non recessed windows. The pictured one is the old brass top which they returned to with the current MP models. M6 have the zinc tops

B-9 · Mar 9, 2013

With these changes^
Also came cheaper service prices!
It's easier to replace than adjust.

I also find the difference between the brass and steel geared bodies negligible.
Both the M3 and M4-2 I own feel butter smooth. Ide have a hard time deciding which is smoother in advancing. Ide also consider the motor drive coupling of the M4-2/P a valuable asset, flexibility is a big deal!

mugent · May 16, 2013

The M4 is arguably prettier, the M4-2 should be cheaper. I've owned an M4-2 and it was no worse, no less smooth, or discernably different in quality than any other Leica I've used. Maybe I had a 'good' one, but everything I read about quality issues with the M4-2 were simply not true, and it was a lovely camera.
The M4 *is* prettier though 🙂 it depends on the value you put on prettiness.

k__43 · May 17, 2013

M4-2 or even M4-P plus a good lens is better than a M4 w/o lens
Also black M4s are hard to get (if you like black)
For many the M4 is the last "real" M, but I don't give a $h|t - you wan't to use it and not dream about it, right?

furbs · Jun 18, 2013

I ended up with a chrome M4, my first M and first chrome camera, too. The film advance and shutter release feel great; it was CLA'd by Essex last year. Finally shot most of my first roll today and though this beauty looks superb, it shoots even better!

The M4-2 seems like a fine camera, but I prefer the low-key front of the M4. I'm surprised by how little people respond to being photographed with the M4 as opposed to, say, an SLR or Mamiya 7.

Godfrey · Jun 19, 2013

furbs said:
I ended up with a chrome M4, my first M and first chrome camera, too. The film advance and shutter release feel great; it was CLA'd by Essex last year. Finally shot most of my first roll today and though this beauty looks superb, it shoots even better!

The M4-2 seems like a fine camera, but I prefer the low-key front of the M4. I'm surprised by how little people respond to being photographed with the M4 as opposed to, say, an SLR or Mamiya 7.

Enjoy your new camera! Any M is a good pick. ;-)

Not sure what you mean by the low-key front of the M4 compared to the M4-2. My black M4-2 seems about as low key and inconspicuous as they come. Raising any of the Ms to your eye for a snap is far less intrusive than almost any SLR (because of the mirror "wink") or medium format camera (due to their size). Takes a lot more work to be unobtrusive with larger cameras!

G

furbs · Jun 19, 2013

Godfrey said:
Enjoy your new camera! Any M is a good pick. ;-)

The "Show Your M" thread has helped convince me of this... 😀

Not sure what you mean by the low-key front of the M4 compared to the M4-2.

Through years of (highly unscientific) research, I've come to believe that visible words on a camera's front garner more attention than a chrome top. At least that's what I notice in others' cameras. Taping over words is an option, and I'd tape an M4-2 if I had one. And stealthy technique can help camouflage any camera.

My black M4-2 seems about as low key and inconspicuous as they come. Raising any of the Ms to your eye for a snap is far less intrusive than almost any SLR (because of the mirror "wink") or medium format camera (due to their size). Takes a lot more work to be unobtrusive with larger cameras!

Agreed! And with scale focusing you might not even have to raise it to your eye. I love my tabbed 50 Summicron for this, and will almost certainly get a tabbed 35, after saving up a bit of course 🙂

Photog9000 · Jun 21, 2013

darkprints said:
I'm curious about KEH's "bargain" grade cameras - are they usually dented/dinged?

I have bought cameras & lenses through KEH on a number of occasions and always have found their ratings are very meticulous. To reach an excellent plus (or even excellent in some cases) at KEH, the equipment has to be in extremely top notch condition.

Robert Lai · Jun 21, 2013

Regarding the KEH ratings, I would say they are accurate.
EX and EX+ do not equate in any way with "mint".
I picked up two Canon FL lenses from KEH. Both EX+. Cosmetically, they looked good, with some points of paint loss. Both had stiff focusing rings. The diaphragm on one lens was frozen. I called KEH, and they said that since the lens in question was so low cost ($50), I should just keep it, and they'd refund me the money.

I sent both lenses off to be overhauled. My repairman told me that both had been worked on previously. The one with the frozen diaphragm had bent levers as well as migration of the helical grease into the diaphragm mechanism. This has been cleaned and corrected now.

At least you won't lose anything with trying KEH, as their return/refund policy is very fair. Just don't buy BGN and expect a gleaming almost new camera.

Leica M4 or Leica M4-2?