kennethcooke
Established
Further to my previous post about an M2 body to use in conjunction with my M6 someone suggested I might look at an M4-P. I read about the specification and it appears to have the same framelines as my M6 which means it will accommodate my 75mm lens as well as my 35 and 50mm.
The prices do not seem much different to the M2. The only slight disadvantage being that they are mostly black, but I guess I could put up with that as performance is the main criteria
The prices do not seem much different to the M2. The only slight disadvantage being that they are mostly black, but I guess I could put up with that as performance is the main criteria
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Moto Mark
Established
You are correct. I had an M4P and an M6 and the frame lines were the same.
photogdave
Shops local
An M4-P will also be newer than an M2 and have the easier film loading system.
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
If it matters to you at all, I understand the earlier M4-P's still had brass top-plates, where the later ones have the same zinc top-plates of the M6. You can tell the difference by looking at the windows on the front- if they are recessed like the earlier M's, this should be a brass top; if they are flush like the M6, this will be a zinc top plate.
Functionally, I don't think it makes any difference. Of course the zinc-topped cameras will be a bit lighter; some think the brass tops deaden sound and vibration a bit better, but I can't comment on this. I have also heard conflicting reports about changes in the finders which indicate the earlier ones may be better (with less likelihood of flaring out). Just FYI.
Functionally, I don't think it makes any difference. Of course the zinc-topped cameras will be a bit lighter; some think the brass tops deaden sound and vibration a bit better, but I can't comment on this. I have also heard conflicting reports about changes in the finders which indicate the earlier ones may be better (with less likelihood of flaring out). Just FYI.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
My M4-P (bought new 25+ years ago) is the roughest new Leica I have ever used, and the 75mm frame-lines are somewhat vestigial. It flares far worse than the M2 (I have two of these). All in all, not a Leica I'd recommend. But even a poor Leica is better than most manufacturers' good cameras...
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
Generally an M2 (IMHO, a better built amera), will sell for less than a comparably used M4-P - the trade offs are -
Framelines - M2 - 3 framelines; M4-P - 6 framelines
Loading - M2 - M3 style loading; M4-P - M4 style loading
Winder Mechanism - M2 - No motor/winder fitting; M4-P - motor/winder fitting
Engraing - M2 - "prettier" classic engraving; M4-P - "Leitz" stamp (no topcover engraving)
Finder - M2 - "Better" flair resistant finder; M4-P - Simpler "right-or-replace" finder with the condenser removed.
Rewinding - M2 - M3-style post RW; M4-P - Slanted M4 style rewinding
An M4-P comparison with an M6 is much simpler -
The M4-P is essentially an M6 without a meter. The finder will flair worse than an M2 only because it has the "right or replace" finder without the condenser (added back in 2003 with the MP).
Their framelines, while measured the same, are slightly different in the M4-P compared to the M6 because of the meter diodes.
Framelines - M2 - 3 framelines; M4-P - 6 framelines
Loading - M2 - M3 style loading; M4-P - M4 style loading
Winder Mechanism - M2 - No motor/winder fitting; M4-P - motor/winder fitting
Engraing - M2 - "prettier" classic engraving; M4-P - "Leitz" stamp (no topcover engraving)
Finder - M2 - "Better" flair resistant finder; M4-P - Simpler "right-or-replace" finder with the condenser removed.
Rewinding - M2 - M3-style post RW; M4-P - Slanted M4 style rewinding
An M4-P comparison with an M6 is much simpler -
The M4-P is essentially an M6 without a meter. The finder will flair worse than an M2 only because it has the "right or replace" finder without the condenser (added back in 2003 with the MP).
Their framelines, while measured the same, are slightly different in the M4-P compared to the M6 because of the meter diodes.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
There's also the other M4: the M4-2, conceived as an economy version of the M4 (same as the M2 was the economy version of the M3). If you manage to get one with a SN above 150,000, you're in for a treat. Only disadvantage (to me): lack of 28 and 75mm framelines. Otherwise, it's a good Leica (just like the M4-P).
They sell at a lower price than the M4s, probably about the same as the M4-P and perhaps a bit above the M2.
They sell at a lower price than the M4s, probably about the same as the M4-P and perhaps a bit above the M2.
Joop van Heijgen
Established
See also for the 'old' M4-P discussion: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47793
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
If you mean over 1,500,000, that is the common belief. It was said that the first run had QC issues related to undocumented changes in the specs on the film advance gears dating from the original M4 production. However, when the M4-2 was introduced I got one of the first ones and personally never had a problem with it.
I didn't like the camera only because I made the mistake of buying one with that funky M4-2 winder! After I sold the camera (and the winder), I realized I would have enjoyed it without the winder attached.
Artorius
Caribbean Traveler
I liked mine
I liked mine
I had a Brass topped one. I liked everything about the camera, just not the color. I am a silver chrome person, and the camera was black. I almost bought a chrome top, but couldn't justify putting another $250-350 into it. If it had been chrome I would have kept it, and sold my M3.
Overall it is a great camera. Never had any issues with it.
I liked mine
I had a Brass topped one. I liked everything about the camera, just not the color. I am a silver chrome person, and the camera was black. I almost bought a chrome top, but couldn't justify putting another $250-350 into it. If it had been chrome I would have kept it, and sold my M3.
Overall it is a great camera. Never had any issues with it.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Roger is right about the 75mm frame corners in the M4-P - vestigial is a good word. If it matters, you might want to get a look through one before you buy. I found them unusable, but YMMV.
FrankS
Registered User
One of the reasons that I sold my M6 was the clutter of frame lines. I bought myself an M2 to replace it. I also sold an M5, and bought another M2 to replace it.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I prefer the M4-P over the MP and M6 anytime. The M4-P wind-on mechanism - when correctly serviced by Leica - is as smooth as the one from the MP, and the frame lines of the M4-P have the same size as in the M4 and earlier models (not under-sized as in the M6).
cosmonot
uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝʞ
I've got both M2 and M4P in the bag right now. The 35mm frame lines in the M4P are easier for me to see, but that's because I wear glasses. That's something to think about... Otherwise, the CLA on the M4P cost about 2.5x what any of the M2 CLAs cost. For a "newer" camera in minty shape, I would have thought otherwise.
BillBingham2
Registered User
When I was using Leica's I had an M4-P and an M6, could not imagine two cameras that handled the more the same that were so different. If you have an M6 and like it I would not worry about the M4-P flare, it never bothered me, YMMV. I had the winder-M and changed it for a Rapid-Winder. Which I loved so much I bought another to put on the other body.
There is a lot of great things to be said about the M2. It is a pinnacle of the heap of Leica greatness. If you had a M3, I'd go M2 without a second thought. They handle very much alike, a great pair. Smooth, silent, robust, unflappable.
I'd do M4-P, they are great cameras.
B2 (;->
There is a lot of great things to be said about the M2. It is a pinnacle of the heap of Leica greatness. If you had a M3, I'd go M2 without a second thought. They handle very much alike, a great pair. Smooth, silent, robust, unflappable.
I'd do M4-P, they are great cameras.
B2 (;->
kennethcooke
Established
I think the answer is a black M4-P. At least I will be able to tell it apart from my chrome M6 in the depths of my camera bag. I loved your Hastings shots by the way. We have just spent a delightful weekend away in Scarborough with our daughter.
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kennethcooke
Established
I am sort of going off the idea of an M4-P in favour of a really nice condition chrome M2. I can always buy a 75mm finder for my Voigtlander 75mm Heliar which was the main reason for an M4-P
kennethcooke
Established
It's official, I have ordered a mint M6 classic 0.72 in, you've guessed it, chrome just like the one I have but newer- £670+ 6 months warranty from a company based in North Yorkshire. A deep heart felt thank you to all who have participated in this journey with. I hate buying anything so I find it very stressful and as I have been retired a good many years through ill health I also need to spend my limited resources wisely.
Nh3
Well-known
The P in M4-P stands for professional and professional cameras are usually black. You don't wanna a shiny camera in a war zone with snipers on the horizon!
And also sturdiness and reliability takes precedence in pro cameras over 'smooth' operation and other trivial matters that only an amateur would care about.
And also sturdiness and reliability takes precedence in pro cameras over 'smooth' operation and other trivial matters that only an amateur would care about.