jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
egpj said:
Relax, everyone -- if the firmware isn't final, then sample pictures wouldn't really tell us anything useful anyway, so why sweat it?
The only informative things we can learn at this point are how the camera handles in the hand and behaves with various lenses, and how compatible the files are with the various types of image-processing software out there.
That's exactly the type of info that Ascender is trying to give us, and personally, I appreciate that. So, thanks and keep the info coming!
PS -- I admit complete ignorance of the pop music scene (my idea of "popular music" runs more to George Gershwin, Irving Berlin and Cole Porter) but I gather from other comments that Ascender is a professional musician in his non-photography life...? If so, he's got plenty of demands on his time aside from writing postings for us, so let's not get too kvetchy, okay?!?!?
R
RML
Guest
Damn, I thought I was happy with my R-D1. Charlie's reports are making me lust for an M8. 
IGMeanwell
Well-known
Still no pics?
T
Todd.Hanz
Guest
ya'll quit clubbing Seal, (sorry Charlie, I couldn't resist ) he'll post 'em when he's ready, in the mean time theres some links to some M8 pics here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395299#post395299
Todd
) he'll post 'em when he's ready, in the mean time theres some links to some M8 pics here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395299#post395299Todd
Ascender
Established
M8 & The Editors
M8 & The Editors
Okay,
So far, neither ‘Aperture.app’ nor ‘Lightroom.app’ read the M8’s version of DNG’s. I actually spoke to someone at Apple (head of ‘Aperture.app’ design team) about three weeks ago and he more or less told me what most of us would suspect. That Apple hadn’t received a camera from Leica for testing and that they would be very keen to add the M8 to their list of supported cameras. When I told him that I may be getting one, he asked if I could forward him an image from it so that they could reverse engineer it and get closer to supporting it. Just so all of you know, I won’t be doing that for the same reasons I quoted here.
Although ‘Lightroom.app’ is an ‘Adobe’ product, it also doesn’t see the DNG from the M8 which I guess is an indication of just how screwed-up this whole Proprietary RAW business is….there are DNG’s within DNG’s……RIDICULOUS!!
So all of the shots I took yesterday were FINE JPG’s and they were as expected. Colour is immaculate and the B/W’s were well…Black and White! As far as sharpness is concerned, I must be honest and tell you that most of my pictures were soft DUE TO MY BEING OUT OF PRACTICE WITH RANGEFINDER FOCUSING, NOT ANY FAULT WHATSOEVER WITH THE CAMERA. I REPEAT, THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE CAMERA! I know this because the few where I did manage, through some incredible twist of fate, to focus properly were tack sharp. Basically I’m saying that it was a rude reminder of just how unforgiving those M lenses with the rangefinder system are and how lazy and dependent I’ve become on the likes of Nikon and Canon DSLR’s. I leave for Europe this morning for a short tour and I’ll be taking the M8 of course and my M7 (my dream come true….oh the beauty of the M system) so I will have get my focusing act together pretty soon. The good thing I suppose is that now with the digital M, it kind of doubles as an incredibly luxurious Polaroid thus helping to prevent most of my M7 proofs coming back from the lab ….OUT OF FOCUS ARRRRGH!
However, the images were pretty much as I thought, true to life with that certain Leica ‘I don’t know what’. Now am I going to sit here and tell you that they are leaps and bounds above anything from my D200 or 5D…. of course not. Both of those are exceedingly great cameras. But that is not the point of the M8. The point is that it reintroduces the visceral aspect of photography. It engages us once again with the subject and the moment…the decisive moment. It forces us to be more patient and helps us stay in the process thus appreciating the result if and when we achieve it. Also let us not forget, it allows us to use our much treasured collection of M lenses. So you see, it’s not really going to be about pixel peeping for any of the true lovers out there. All we need to know is that noise is very well controlled throughout the ISO range and that the image quality is exceptional. Why else would we be excited about buying what will be seen in the eyes of many competitors, an archaic non auto-focusing system? It is the Leica engagement that till this day seduces us as well as the image quality. In that respect we will not be disappointed.
Hi Todd, I would be lying if I told you that I thought the D-Lux 3 was a far superior camera than the LX- 3 (I think that’s the Panasonic version). All I will say is that I had the Panasonic for a couple of days and while I found it a pleasure to use, I thought the image quality was needlessly appalling for a camera that showed so much promise. What made me give the D-Lux 3 a try was that when I arrived back from Mendocino and headed straight over to Ebi’s house, his lovely wife Mary-jo had my M8 waiting for me (It was sent C/O them for me) and she took a picture for Steffen with the new D-Lux3. I asked her about it and she told me that she loved it and that Leica had completely different software in theirs. I called up my friend Brendon now at the Samy’s Venice store and he confirmed that despite them being $150-200 more than the Panasonic version, the D-Lux’s were flying out of the door mainly in the plastic bags of professionals. I figured I’d give Leica’s version a try. So far I’m not that impressed to tell you the honest truth. It seems to have less shutter lag time and perhaps its a little less noisy but apart from that the only other excuse for the extra cash is the red dot on the front of the camera. That’s not to say it isn’t a better camera, I’m just saying that I haven’t really compared the two or seen any significant jump in image quality. They both seem to suffer from a default noise reduction filter, which only makes the pictures look as though they have a thin layer of Vaseline over them. I will fiddle with it more and give you a more conclusive verdict after my trip. I will say though that I question having that many options in a point n shoot. Basically if I’m going to be getting that creative I should be using a pro camera! Point n shoot being the operative here and for this reason I LOVE the ‘Sony DSC-T10’ and the ‘Canon SD700IS’ both superb cameras for this purpose especially the T10’s B/W movie mode…wow!
Okay that’s it from me until Europe. I must get going. It may be some time before my next post but please bare with me. I hope these thoughts have been of some help to some of you.
Cheers,
-Charlie
M8 & The Editors
Okay,
So far, neither ‘Aperture.app’ nor ‘Lightroom.app’ read the M8’s version of DNG’s. I actually spoke to someone at Apple (head of ‘Aperture.app’ design team) about three weeks ago and he more or less told me what most of us would suspect. That Apple hadn’t received a camera from Leica for testing and that they would be very keen to add the M8 to their list of supported cameras. When I told him that I may be getting one, he asked if I could forward him an image from it so that they could reverse engineer it and get closer to supporting it. Just so all of you know, I won’t be doing that for the same reasons I quoted here.
Although ‘Lightroom.app’ is an ‘Adobe’ product, it also doesn’t see the DNG from the M8 which I guess is an indication of just how screwed-up this whole Proprietary RAW business is….there are DNG’s within DNG’s……RIDICULOUS!!
So all of the shots I took yesterday were FINE JPG’s and they were as expected. Colour is immaculate and the B/W’s were well…Black and White! As far as sharpness is concerned, I must be honest and tell you that most of my pictures were soft DUE TO MY BEING OUT OF PRACTICE WITH RANGEFINDER FOCUSING, NOT ANY FAULT WHATSOEVER WITH THE CAMERA. I REPEAT, THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE CAMERA! I know this because the few where I did manage, through some incredible twist of fate, to focus properly were tack sharp. Basically I’m saying that it was a rude reminder of just how unforgiving those M lenses with the rangefinder system are and how lazy and dependent I’ve become on the likes of Nikon and Canon DSLR’s. I leave for Europe this morning for a short tour and I’ll be taking the M8 of course and my M7 (my dream come true….oh the beauty of the M system) so I will have get my focusing act together pretty soon. The good thing I suppose is that now with the digital M, it kind of doubles as an incredibly luxurious Polaroid thus helping to prevent most of my M7 proofs coming back from the lab ….OUT OF FOCUS ARRRRGH!
However, the images were pretty much as I thought, true to life with that certain Leica ‘I don’t know what’. Now am I going to sit here and tell you that they are leaps and bounds above anything from my D200 or 5D…. of course not. Both of those are exceedingly great cameras. But that is not the point of the M8. The point is that it reintroduces the visceral aspect of photography. It engages us once again with the subject and the moment…the decisive moment. It forces us to be more patient and helps us stay in the process thus appreciating the result if and when we achieve it. Also let us not forget, it allows us to use our much treasured collection of M lenses. So you see, it’s not really going to be about pixel peeping for any of the true lovers out there. All we need to know is that noise is very well controlled throughout the ISO range and that the image quality is exceptional. Why else would we be excited about buying what will be seen in the eyes of many competitors, an archaic non auto-focusing system? It is the Leica engagement that till this day seduces us as well as the image quality. In that respect we will not be disappointed.
Hi Todd, I would be lying if I told you that I thought the D-Lux 3 was a far superior camera than the LX- 3 (I think that’s the Panasonic version). All I will say is that I had the Panasonic for a couple of days and while I found it a pleasure to use, I thought the image quality was needlessly appalling for a camera that showed so much promise. What made me give the D-Lux 3 a try was that when I arrived back from Mendocino and headed straight over to Ebi’s house, his lovely wife Mary-jo had my M8 waiting for me (It was sent C/O them for me) and she took a picture for Steffen with the new D-Lux3. I asked her about it and she told me that she loved it and that Leica had completely different software in theirs. I called up my friend Brendon now at the Samy’s Venice store and he confirmed that despite them being $150-200 more than the Panasonic version, the D-Lux’s were flying out of the door mainly in the plastic bags of professionals. I figured I’d give Leica’s version a try. So far I’m not that impressed to tell you the honest truth. It seems to have less shutter lag time and perhaps its a little less noisy but apart from that the only other excuse for the extra cash is the red dot on the front of the camera. That’s not to say it isn’t a better camera, I’m just saying that I haven’t really compared the two or seen any significant jump in image quality. They both seem to suffer from a default noise reduction filter, which only makes the pictures look as though they have a thin layer of Vaseline over them. I will fiddle with it more and give you a more conclusive verdict after my trip. I will say though that I question having that many options in a point n shoot. Basically if I’m going to be getting that creative I should be using a pro camera! Point n shoot being the operative here and for this reason I LOVE the ‘Sony DSC-T10’ and the ‘Canon SD700IS’ both superb cameras for this purpose especially the T10’s B/W movie mode…wow!
Okay that’s it from me until Europe. I must get going. It may be some time before my next post but please bare with me. I hope these thoughts have been of some help to some of you.
Cheers,
-Charlie
chrism
Well-known
I'm sure we have all seen and played with the M8 DNG file of the girl at Photokina with the HP ID neck strap. It seems to open just fine in Lightroom beta 4.
Chris
Chris
egpj
50 Summilux is da DEVIL!
Thanks for the update and good luck on the mini tour. I was hoping that Leica would have sent you the software that they were bundling with the camera. It is supposed to read their DNG raw format. No problem though on the pictures, they are starting to filter their way on the net.
Ascender
Established
No Problem
No Problem
I don't know whatever it is that Chrism says he got from Photokina, something about a pic of a girl with a neck strap that opens just fine. I can tell you,not only do I have LR beta 4 but I'm very good friends with George Jardin who heads the LR team so I also have later builds than what are publicly available. I can only assume that whatever you got was not a file from the M8 because I repeat...They do not open in either LR or Aperture. See ya guys.
No Problem
I don't know whatever it is that Chrism says he got from Photokina, something about a pic of a girl with a neck strap that opens just fine. I can tell you,not only do I have LR beta 4 but I'm very good friends with George Jardin who heads the LR team so I also have later builds than what are publicly available. I can only assume that whatever you got was not a file from the M8 because I repeat...They do not open in either LR or Aperture. See ya guys.
chrism
Well-known
The DNG is available to download on this page. Look for the link called 'First Picture in DNG' and option-click on it if using a mac (right click and save to disk in Windows). For some reason it downloads as a text file with a .txt extension. Just take this off and leave it as a .dng file. It will open in ACR, C1 LE and LR beta 4 (and even in Graphic Convertor with a little effort since you are said to be a mac user). The EXIF data clearly shows this to be an M8 file and most folks believe it to be so. Now it is conceivable that the file format is slightly different with new firmware, but I doubt if that would be changed this late in the game.
Chris
Chris
AShearer
Established
Todd.Hanz said:
Interesting. These are .Jpgs, which doesn't answer the DNG file question. The EXIF data refers to the Camera Model as "M8 Digital Camera" . That's a little strange. Example: When I use my Nikon D200, it refers to the Camera Model as "D200" i.e. Not D200 Digital Camera.
I also wonder what some of the other data means. e.g. Metering Mode 1, and so on. Maybe someone more familiar with all this data can enlighten us.
T
Todd.Hanz
Guest
Ascender said:
so you can open jpegs in Aperture? just not the DNGs? Do they open in CS2, I'd get a copy of CS2 from one of your buddies and try that.
Todd
Last edited by a moderator:
AndyPiper
Established
I will guarantee that real M8 files read: "Leica Camera AG" as the manufacturer and "M8 digital camera" as the model. The camera makers can write in any character string they want, and EXIF just reads what they wrote.
Photoshop CS2, ACR 3.3 (10 months old), and Bridge all handle M8 .dngs seamlessly - I have about 40 so far, all taken with a beta demo camera with the same understanding as Seal/Ascender - that they never appear on the Web.
Like an idiot, I forgot to bring a Colorchecker card along when I got the chance to shoot with the M8 - so I can't do my own color calibration in ACR. And it's clear that neither Leica nor Adobe had yet done a detailed color calibration either with that early firmware (v. 0.2) - a definite funkiness in the cyan/red balance. If Ascender is seeing sweet color, then that has now been taken care of in the firmware version he's using (not that I expected otherwise).
Photoshop CS2, ACR 3.3 (10 months old), and Bridge all handle M8 .dngs seamlessly - I have about 40 so far, all taken with a beta demo camera with the same understanding as Seal/Ascender - that they never appear on the Web.
Like an idiot, I forgot to bring a Colorchecker card along when I got the chance to shoot with the M8 - so I can't do my own color calibration in ACR. And it's clear that neither Leica nor Adobe had yet done a detailed color calibration either with that early firmware (v. 0.2) - a definite funkiness in the cyan/red balance. If Ascender is seeing sweet color, then that has now been taken care of in the firmware version he's using (not that I expected otherwise).
Mark Norton
Well-known
Does beg the question why they have left doing the colour calibration so late. Sure some fine tuning as time goes by but I would have thought that if they have done any meaningful testing in the field that gross errors would have been sorted out long ago.
lxlim
Member
Newbie to Leica M8
Newbie to Leica M8
New here. Checked out this forum when they announced the M8 at Photokina and got myself an invite when the local agents did a Leica launch. Never posted a message before anywhere, so forgive me if my text gives offense in anyway not intended. The people who did the launch did not specifically announce any prohibition against uploading the files. So goes.
I'm a Canon user so I've never used a rangefinder before. The first shot I got was terrible. Wrong white balance and overexposed by about 2 stops at ISO 1250 with the new 28mm at f2.8.
Opened the DNG file in Photoshop CS (NOT CS2, real glad it did because I have reservations about the DNG being a true open format) for an uncorrected version.
White Balance 4750 tint -25, It looked almost monochromatic reddish orange.
Will attach adjusted version next post.
Alex
Newbie to Leica M8
New here. Checked out this forum when they announced the M8 at Photokina and got myself an invite when the local agents did a Leica launch. Never posted a message before anywhere, so forgive me if my text gives offense in anyway not intended. The people who did the launch did not specifically announce any prohibition against uploading the files. So goes.
I'm a Canon user so I've never used a rangefinder before. The first shot I got was terrible. Wrong white balance and overexposed by about 2 stops at ISO 1250 with the new 28mm at f2.8.
Opened the DNG file in Photoshop CS (NOT CS2, real glad it did because I have reservations about the DNG being a true open format) for an uncorrected version.
White Balance 4750 tint -25, It looked almost monochromatic reddish orange.
Will attach adjusted version next post.
Alex
Attachments
lxlim
Member
Next step,
Adjustments.
White Balance 2000 tint -74, exposure -1.40 Brightness 73, Contrast +84
Noise Ninja on autoprofiling.
Overall while the noise is about the same as a Canon 1DmkIIn and colours looked a little odd the M8 image was quite incredible considering how bad a picture I took. I will wait for Sean Reid's complete review (then subscribe) before making a decision. I will most likely get one.
M8 would probably remain a niche camera but definitely an excellent addition to a professional's tool kit. Many strengths to offset the disadvantages.
Alex
Adjustments.
White Balance 2000 tint -74, exposure -1.40 Brightness 73, Contrast +84
Noise Ninja on autoprofiling.
Overall while the noise is about the same as a Canon 1DmkIIn and colours looked a little odd the M8 image was quite incredible considering how bad a picture I took. I will wait for Sean Reid's complete review (then subscribe) before making a decision. I will most likely get one.
M8 would probably remain a niche camera but definitely an excellent addition to a professional's tool kit. Many strengths to offset the disadvantages.
Alex
Attachments
RJames
Member
All you have proven is that it takes time to learn a new camera...lxlim said:
Jim (aka Jim)
lxlim
Member
RJames said:
True. It seemed to me that with my Canons I'm unlikely to rescue the image to this extend and the M8 can.
It may well be the 16 bit quality but then again I might be wrong hence my intention to wait for good reviewers to do a thorough review.
Alex
AndyPiper
Established
Mark Norton said:
Hmmm. Actually, I WOULD expect it to be one of the last things done. Exposure (ISO), noise reduction, moire filtering, WB all can affect how colors get rendered, so I'd want to have those in "final" form before doing the final RGB balancing.
Even the color calibration itself requires regressions: set the WB, set the shadow tint, set the green hue/saturation, set the blue hue/saturation, set the red/hue saturation. But the red adjustment will affect the blue and green a bit, so they have to be tweaked again - and that affects the red, so it has to be tweaked again. And so on through about 4-5 reiterations.
(I had to calibrate my Sony R1 myself, since the ACR version that supported it with full calibration didn't come out until 2 months after I got the camera).
I'd hate to have to go through that process every time something else changed in the imageware - so I'D leave it until last, if it were me.
cobalt
Newbie
Hello Charlie,
welcome to the forum.
Your enthusiasm is making me reconsider my decision to stick with my Epson Rd-1. I handled an M8 at Photokina and although the workmanship is absolutely amazing, I was concerned that I couldn´t change ISO quickly without removing the camera from my eye.
Could you share with us your experience in changing exposure compensation or ISO while taking shots? Did it feel natural or interrupt your workflow?
This is one of the features I appreciate on the Epson.
welcome to the forum.
Your enthusiasm is making me reconsider my decision to stick with my Epson Rd-1. I handled an M8 at Photokina and although the workmanship is absolutely amazing, I was concerned that I couldn´t change ISO quickly without removing the camera from my eye.
Could you share with us your experience in changing exposure compensation or ISO while taking shots? Did it feel natural or interrupt your workflow?
This is one of the features I appreciate on the Epson.
Mark Norton
Well-known
AndyPiper said:
The colour calibration will likely change from camera to camera due to sample variation but I would have thought they would be trying to get it as near to right as possible even with back level firmware on each camera they put out for test or evaluation.
Otherwise, how can they possibly know how close they are to producing worthwhile images?
This camera is supposed to have been out on field trial for months. They can only hide behind the excuse of "not production level firmware" for so long.