MCTuomey
Veteran
If that's directed my way, and you feel I've insulted you, then I apologize. I did not intend to insult. My point is that folks who favor Canikon for excellent reasons seem to take pains to highlight Leica's apparent failures (read bash or verging near it), often with limited or no experience, and perhaps do so out of misplaced expectations of a one-of-a-kind product from a not-so-heavily capitalized enterprise. Those who do so harshly and repeatedly are what I referred to as "haters" (not the best term).
Speaking as one who is heavily invested in Leica, and who's experienced multiple trips to have gear serviced, and who maybe should have cause to whine/bash/wail, I see no point in it. I knew going in of the likelihood of M9 problems, I bought with my eyes open, I take responsibility for my decision. It's on me and, while I'm disappointed because I never contemplated this degree of trouble, it was after all myself who, freely and under as little illusion as possible, pressed the buy button. My oversensitivity, if any, extends to folks who rail against the ethics of Leica and its management with no skin in the game and no basis on which to assess same, as if their delicate standards have been savaged by the sinister opportunism and greed of Kaufman and Co. Or something like that but less flavored. The story's not complete, too early to conclude such weighty judgments, let's be patient, and see whether Leica's commitment, which I think is equitable and responsive, comes to fruition.
dreamsandart
Well-known
Just to give a different non-negative perspective…
Just to give a different non-negative perspective…
I bought my M9 soon after it was introduced. No its not perfect, I had some card issues, its slow to write files, a couple software hang-ups, but I’m one of those that has not had any major problems. It’s been a good reliable camera. Leica Japan had my sensor replaced (didn’t ask, they just did it) a few months back when I sent it in for a cleaning, two weeks door to door and it came back like new (except a few brass edges) cleaned, checked and adjusted, new cover, and at no charge. Not bad for a 5 year old camera out of warranty.
Its the closest thing I’m going to get coming from a long time Leica M-film user. Takes my Leica lenses without issue. Its solid and well built. Its a RF! which is how I like to ‘see.’
Leica’s policy response to the sensor problem is reasonable and covers everything I could hope for with the issue. Unlike my ‘perfect’ film cameras, I think of digital as an evolving technology. There will be better, and hopefully less problems as time goes on. The M9 has a place in that time-line. For me it does what it does the same as it has from day one. All in all I’m a ‘happy camper.’
Just to give a different non-negative perspective…
I bought my M9 soon after it was introduced. No its not perfect, I had some card issues, its slow to write files, a couple software hang-ups, but I’m one of those that has not had any major problems. It’s been a good reliable camera. Leica Japan had my sensor replaced (didn’t ask, they just did it) a few months back when I sent it in for a cleaning, two weeks door to door and it came back like new (except a few brass edges) cleaned, checked and adjusted, new cover, and at no charge. Not bad for a 5 year old camera out of warranty.
Its the closest thing I’m going to get coming from a long time Leica M-film user. Takes my Leica lenses without issue. Its solid and well built. Its a RF! which is how I like to ‘see.’
Leica’s policy response to the sensor problem is reasonable and covers everything I could hope for with the issue. Unlike my ‘perfect’ film cameras, I think of digital as an evolving technology. There will be better, and hopefully less problems as time goes on. The M9 has a place in that time-line. For me it does what it does the same as it has from day one. All in all I’m a ‘happy camper.’
nobbylon
Veteran
Roger,
I can see that it may come across as irritated, angry is too strong a word and permanent state of anger? about a camera? seriously?
You are right about not needing, liking or wanting though but if as I have said over and over again......if they make something I believe in then i'll buy one.
It would however appear that i've offended some fans so i'll say sorry to them and hope that they can enjoy their cameras,
regards john
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear John,
From the way you keep posting your views about Leicas, it does look a bit that way. As you say, it's just not that important.
Are Leicas perfect? No. Are they the only digital RFs available? Yes. I can't get a lot more excited about it than that.
Cheers,
R.
--
Well-known
No
No
Mr. Hicks - you are wrong. The original digital rangefinder is still available and going strong. Ebay has 5 up for sale as of time of writing. No need to go Leica if you want the real rangefinder experience winding on, hiding the screen etc.
No
Mr. Hicks - you are wrong. The original digital rangefinder is still available and going strong. Ebay has 5 up for sale as of time of writing. No need to go Leica if you want the real rangefinder experience winding on, hiding the screen etc.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Whoo. I can see that things are back to normal now. There is a feature of digital cameras that most of us have just accepted, namely the short product cycle. For me, it doesn't make as much sense in a $7000 camera as it does in a $700 camera. . . but in truth, it doesn't make much sense at $700 per "upgrade" either. Personally, I love having a digital rangefinder available to me. And I like the machine, despite its quirks. I do think that as more and more processing power is fit under the hood of more commonplace mirrorless cameras, that it will matter less and less that the actual focusing is done Messucher-style. Right now I have three types of mirrorless cameras kicking around (Olympus, Sony Alpha and Fuji) and they are fun little machines. The M9 is the fun big machine and I plan on using it for a good long while. But my definition of "long" has changed. Will the M9 outlast that little 1938 Leica IIIa? Not at their current rates of use. But then we all knew that going in, didn't we?
Now, I will be taking a deeeep breath. Having a good stretch, like Sasha the wonder cat over there by the wood stove. And thinking about how lucky we all are to have today's range of choices. Film and digital? It is an embarrassment of riches, boys. Hey, how come none of the girls are growling at one another over this stuff? More sense than gear, perhaps. ;-)
Now, I will be taking a deeeep breath. Having a good stretch, like Sasha the wonder cat over there by the wood stove. And thinking about how lucky we all are to have today's range of choices. Film and digital? It is an embarrassment of riches, boys. Hey, how come none of the girls are growling at one another over this stuff? More sense than gear, perhaps. ;-)
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I repeatedly expressed that I have owned my Monochrom for almost two years without any symptoms or problems in many posts in several threads.
The only minor difficulty I experienced was the freezing up if using the soft shutter mode that I learned to no longer use. Understand that I am a heavy shooter and my camera shows a lot of wear/brassing. I don't see using specific SD cards that work well with the camera as a big deal, yet I remember all the whining by others in very long threads. Then there is the third party battery problem. Is using a third party inferior product Leica's fault? Are any of these problems that big a deal? It seems for some a deal breaker.
I would be the first to say that there are improvements that I would welcome, and yet again I have stated these in other posts and threads: larger buffer of M-240; larger screen of M-240; and even no 75mm frames for me.
Just above is a post where someone got five years out of his original sensor who had his sensor recently replaced when sent in for a cleaning. I think there is a lot of repetion here because a few people just want to believe what they want to believe and are rather selective in accentuating the negative and disreguarding the positives. In other words people are exposing their bias and are set in their thinking. Oh-well.
Am I being off-topic by saying I have had no real problems to complain about? Should my posts be disreguarded because the SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PROBLEMS? Should I start a different thread about Leica digital M owners who have not any problems?
To me it is logical and appropiate for owners to report their experiences here. Earlier this year a friend who upgraded his M9 into a M9P had a similar experience as the post above. He sent his M9P to get its sensor cleaned and had his sensor replaced for free.
Cal
willie_901
Veteran
Leica is on the right path.
Based on their business decisions, the big picture is a focus on luxury products.
Photo enthusiasts who typically don't purchase luxury items benefit from the trickle down effect. Many average-income enthusiasts have a legacy collection of LTM/M glass acquired for the film bodies. They may splurge on a new digital M body or they may wait until the used digital M market prices are in line with their resources. High income enthusiasts are not a growth market for Leica either.
The global luxury market is Leica's only path to increased revenues and profitability. The asian market is a prime example and Leica has no choice but to harvest new customers with large discretionary reserves. I suspect almost all of these potential new customers could care less about Leica's digital M track record.
Based on their business decisions, the big picture is a focus on luxury products.
Photo enthusiasts who typically don't purchase luxury items benefit from the trickle down effect. Many average-income enthusiasts have a legacy collection of LTM/M glass acquired for the film bodies. They may splurge on a new digital M body or they may wait until the used digital M market prices are in line with their resources. High income enthusiasts are not a growth market for Leica either.
The global luxury market is Leica's only path to increased revenues and profitability. The asian market is a prime example and Leica has no choice but to harvest new customers with large discretionary reserves. I suspect almost all of these potential new customers could care less about Leica's digital M track record.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Fred kinda sums it all up nicely: for some the risk is worth it; for others not worth it.
Not worth arguing about.
Cal
SuperUJ
Well-known
Sounds like we need a M9 appreciation day. And by the way, my experience with my vintage M9 has been positive too.
John
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
I appreciate my Monochrom all the time. Wait till you see the ten fiber 20x30's I'm having printed by Digital Silver Imaging. My Monochrome has been good for me.
I want to see some prints from your recent trip to Africa.
Back on topic: any problems? LOL.
Cal
Post Script: Sorry John, I made a mistake and thought you were Jean-Marc. Hope to see you January 11th at the NYC Meet-Up. I'm going to try and make this one.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I loved my '50s and '60s MG cars, but without question they were unreliable to the point of humor.
People who owned them tried to outdo each other on how terrible a disaster they had experienced. I had an MG-TD crankshaft break in two and crack the head (not a lot of bearings in that little engine). I had one break both rear axles, and on a TD that is a major disaster, requiring removal of the entire rear end.
But when they were running, on a sunny summer afternoon, with a nice Abarth exhaust, they were sublime. Almost exactly like being in love.
EDIT: Even I have limits, I was riding in an Alfa Romeo 1900C Superleggera when it began to burn, there is nothing like seeing a hood blacken and bubble. Of course paint never stuck to the body very well anyway!
Fred,
This is good material, and all the above resonates with me.
I had a friend who had a MGB that somehow he stuffed a Ford 302 into it. It was a death machine. LOL And it was very much like a miniture AC Cobra.
I was doing 65 MPH on an interstate in Ohio when I broke my rear axel three wheeling for over a mile skidding on my rear right backing plate for over a mile in an overloaded Jeep that also had a raised suspension. It was an "E" ticket ride where my understanding of physics prevented me from becoming a wet red sponge rolled ito a ball of steel and glass.
For me my fetish was my 1984 Jeep Scrambler, one of the most unsafe vehicals allowed on the road, especially mine which I jacked up and also used oversized tires. Since I worked for an aerospace company, and because I have bad boundries, I used the resources of a Fortune 500 company to basically build a Hum-Vee before they were developed. I singlehandedly created an urban assault vehicle that featured wrap around bumpers made from 6061 extruded 4 inch square aluminum.
Eventually I too had an engine fire, but I resurected my Scrambler by installing a ZZ3 Chevy crate engine which is basically a 350 HP 400 foot pound Corvette engine. My friends all thought I would be killed because this Jeep was so fast, and especially since Jeeps are not very stable.
Anyways for about a decade in NYC I was driving this my Jeep when I lived in Greenpoint and on the Southside of Williamsburg before it was conquered by hipsters.
Some people like danger and surprises and need to have exciting lives that are not mundane.
I think you know my profile.
Cal
V-12
Well-known
When Enzo Ferrari was approached by a man asking it was acceptable that the body of his car was showing some rust Mr Ferrari replied that he was being unreasonable as he paid for the engine and chassis, the rest was thrown in for free.
And indicative that people did joke about these things because jeopardy was up until recently something that had to be dealt with in life. Well OK it still does have to be dealt with, but there has grown an irrational expectation of 'entitlement' where life is sanitised and so disappointment is felt cruelly and not dealt with and shrugged off.
V
x-ray
Veteran
Glad to see someone with some spine. I'm with you 100%. I don't understand why someone would pay big money for a flawed piece of equipment and defend the company that tried to screw them to the wall. Come on, the only reason Leica stepped up is consumer pressure otherwise they would have said nothing just like the past how many years of us dealing with all the problems. You're right too about Leica continuing to produce flawed gear as long as no one complains and as long as the fan club buys it.
Pioneer
Veteran
Maybe, just maybe, there are some of us, myself probably included, who just shouldn't be using digital at all.
After this most recent bout of excitement I am actually giving this a lot of thought.
I really, really enjoy working with the M9, I personally think that it has amazing image quality when using reasonable ISO settings. I think the problem may be more me than the camera. My digital use profile is probably a bit different than others on this forum.
I use film the great majority of the time. My digital cameras usually sit waiting for a situation where I feel that the quick turnaround capability of digital is important. Needless to say this doesn't happen all that often. I have been able to do that for several years with my Pentax K10D.
But the Pentax was not a rangefinder, and I wasn't able to use some of my favorite film lenses from my ZI and M3. So I bought the M9, expecting to be able to have it on hand for years, just like the K10D. I am now learning that this expectation may not have been realistic. I have learned that I should expect this sensor to develop problems irregardless of the amount of use it receives.
As Roger has said, if I want to use a digital rangefinder then this is (almost) the only option available. I guess I have to decide whether or not digital rangefinders are that important to me. If I decide it is, I may want to try an Epson. If it isn't, then I'll just move back to my previous patterns and equipment.
Bear in mind, I don't feel this is the end of the world. I still feel that Leica is a fine company and the recent goodwill offer is very fair in my opinion. This is my personal decision but there may be others who should also give this some thought. Is an $8,000 digital Leica camera a critical component in your personal workflow?
After this most recent bout of excitement I am actually giving this a lot of thought.
I really, really enjoy working with the M9, I personally think that it has amazing image quality when using reasonable ISO settings. I think the problem may be more me than the camera. My digital use profile is probably a bit different than others on this forum.
I use film the great majority of the time. My digital cameras usually sit waiting for a situation where I feel that the quick turnaround capability of digital is important. Needless to say this doesn't happen all that often. I have been able to do that for several years with my Pentax K10D.
But the Pentax was not a rangefinder, and I wasn't able to use some of my favorite film lenses from my ZI and M3. So I bought the M9, expecting to be able to have it on hand for years, just like the K10D. I am now learning that this expectation may not have been realistic. I have learned that I should expect this sensor to develop problems irregardless of the amount of use it receives.
As Roger has said, if I want to use a digital rangefinder then this is (almost) the only option available. I guess I have to decide whether or not digital rangefinders are that important to me. If I decide it is, I may want to try an Epson. If it isn't, then I'll just move back to my previous patterns and equipment.
Bear in mind, I don't feel this is the end of the world. I still feel that Leica is a fine company and the recent goodwill offer is very fair in my opinion. This is my personal decision but there may be others who should also give this some thought. Is an $8,000 digital Leica camera a critical component in your personal workflow?
V-12
Well-known
People do complain, but they do it is a civilised way, direct to the company instead of screaming like little girls seeing a spider in the bathtub. To imagine nobody does anything except sit on their hands waiting for internet saviours to ride to the rescue is some sort of fantasy.
V
x-ray
Veteran
I spent plenty of time bitching at leica until I got problems resolved including the replacement of a defective 90 apo. They had no intention of taking care of the issue till I threatened action.
Sorry I don't believe anyone should getcserewed by leica or any other corporation.
Be a man.
MCTuomey
Veteran
I'm a man. One who prefers to shoot, not whine/bitch/yell. With my X-T1 while my digi Ms are incarcerated at Leica NJ.
Soul Rebels from NOLA warming up Detroit's Jazz Café last night -
20141210-009-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-011-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-023-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-037-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
I like the MM a lot for this kind of shooting, but the Fuji does pretty well, I think. No harm, I can wait for Leica to do its thing.
Soul Rebels from NOLA warming up Detroit's Jazz Café last night -
20141210-009-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-011-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-023-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
20141210-037-web by Mike Tuomey, on Flickr
I like the MM a lot for this kind of shooting, but the Fuji does pretty well, I think. No harm, I can wait for Leica to do its thing.
Michael Markey
Veteran
I was looking at an M9 as the next move but find myself now more minded like XRay and Pioneer ... a rethink is in order.
Had Leica freely admitted the error from the outset instead of trying to blame the user for erroneous cleaning techniques and then compounded it by charging for replacement of what was clearly a defective component I might have been more forgiving.
To pretend that we have arrived at the present situation as a result of some kind of company largesse is fanciful.
They tried to bid people down for something which was their responsibility... tacky .
(Apologies if you feel this is a "bitch").
Nice try but fortunately it didn`t work.
This in no way affects my admiration for the concept of the RF.
Had Leica freely admitted the error from the outset instead of trying to blame the user for erroneous cleaning techniques and then compounded it by charging for replacement of what was clearly a defective component I might have been more forgiving.
To pretend that we have arrived at the present situation as a result of some kind of company largesse is fanciful.
They tried to bid people down for something which was their responsibility... tacky .
(Apologies if you feel this is a "bitch").
Nice try but fortunately it didn`t work.
This in no way affects my admiration for the concept of the RF.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Nice shots Mike ...