silverbullet
Well-known
out of my memory during the introduction of the M9, it was communicated that the wider surface of the full frame sensor of the M9 with an even flatter angle occurred for the light and that the current glass cover of the M8 was to thick. Therefore the very thin tailor-made glass with it's delicate coating had to be used. But as we know certain lenses as the 15mm VC produce red edges when monochrome objects as snow or gray skies are photographed.
CCDs from Habla f.e. and others have the common cover glass because the lenses are all a retrofocal design with a not so delicate angle of light.
silverbullet
Well-known
it could be possible that very thin metallic particles from the shutter on the surface react with the coating under conditions where humidity acts as a transfer medium between the coating and the particles itself…….only guesswork because we aren't Kodak, TrueSense or Schott…..
Mark Schretlen
mostly harmless
My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the M8 and M8.2 are not affected. Dante Stella's theory is this: One of the "improvements" of the M9 was the addition of infrared-cut filter to the sensor stack (Schott S-8612). It is the humidity/moisture vulnerability of this layer that is the likely starting point of the corrosion/pitting problems.
YYV_146
Well-known
CCDs do have regular cover glass, but the red edges still exist with wide lenses, especially when fitting LF lenses to MF backs. In fact this was so much of an issue that Phase One built in a red corner correction tool into the very first version of Capture One...
Anyways, I think what's causing the issue is the IR filtration glass and not the cover. Or are these merged together for the M9?
silverbullet
Well-known
out of my above post with the statement of TrueSense and Leica:
In
addition, the sensor incorporates a new IR-absorbing cover glass as well as a
new red color pigment for improved color fidelity and improved image quality."
V-12
Well-known
I love it when someone who doesn't even own that camera makes remarks like this about the users
For your information, this problem affects EVERY camera body that has the Kodak sensor. It's not some or a few, it is every piece ever manufactured. Normally you do a recall for such thing.
It only affects a few Kodak sensors because only a few will be cleaned by inexperienced owners, the majority will be cleaned by experienced owners or Leica themselves.
But yours is a common mistake in not looking at the broader picture. The Leica M9 was the first digital camera for some people, or at least they only had a P&S before it. Many Leica users had been hanging on with their film camera's before the M9 because they wanted full format so their lenses worked as they wanted, a 28mm Summicron would still have the same coverage for example. So unlike say a Canon or Nikon forum where sensor cleaning topics were old hat because everybody already did it on a regular basis the Leica forums were inundated with the most basic questions about dust and how to clean it. Indeed many people didn't even know they were looking at the affects of dust on their pictures. So do you expect if not a rash of accidents from nervous owners being pulled one way and the other by 'cleaning is easy' and 'send it to Leica' messages? And Leica didn't help with their advice, 'take it to your nearest dealer for a free clean', doesn't do much good if you aren't near a nearest dealer.
So the M9 was essentially a camera for digital newbies for many current Leica owners, not to mention the new adopters wanting the 'Leica ethos' in an easy digital form (with film being 'dead'). And of course they arrive and want it to be just like their Canon and Nikon, 'I need this', 'why doesn't it do that', so they get the worm in their brain that the spent all this money and what do they get for it, no buffer to speak of, manual focusing, and when they discover they have no patience to learn to focus off it goes to Leica for adjustment because it is wrong, not themselves.
And then you have the Leica owners who already have a good set of lenses and other film cameras, and they got over the 'investment' aspect of ownership many years before the M9, they'd seen glitches before, they'd even owned other FF digital cameras before, and the price of an M9 was far less than two or three of their lenses. Dare I say that this changes ones perspective? Instead of sweating about perceived problems and the expense they can instead see the value in the M9, how good it was/is, and what it could do for their photography.
Now I can't put myself into another group of owners just to share your anxiety, to wallow in worries about why I can't get along with rangefinder focusing or engage in the fantasy Leica are trying to screw me, but I can see where other people are coming from and why they may think one thing and not another. From some of the previous posts this is a trait of understanding that has clearly been distorted by listening to the wrong people, having individual bad experiences, or just having a big mouth and don't even own a Leica. But they are all listening to prejudices and they need to take a step back. There have been well over 100,000 Leica M9's made, so, where are the 100,000 complaints?
V
xleic
Member
Wow 100,000? How did you know?
Vobluda
Well-known
From some interview with Leica - they have planed 14k M9s but produced them 30k.
My estimate is including other iterations like M9-P, MM and M-E that this sensor has been used in about 50k cameras at max.
My estimate is including other iterations like M9-P, MM and M-E that this sensor has been used in about 50k cameras at max.
Matthew Runkel
Well-known
V-12, what made you think this sensor defect has much, or anything, to do with incompetent cleaning? If the problem results from operator incompetence, then it's really quite something for Leica to be subsidizing all these sensor replacements.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
It doesn't. My Monochrom has developed a corrosion defect and the first appearance of the defect (when I go back and look at my files) occurred prior to the camera sensor being cleaned (which was only ever done by Leica themselves).
If this problem was caused by "incompetent cleaning" (as opposed to possibly being exacerbated by it) then it would be a widespread problem within the industry. It isn't and is a problem peculiar to this type of full frame sensor that Leica are using in the M9 class of cameras. Whether the cover glass is intrinsically too delicate for normal contact cleaning (a design fault) or whether it hasn't been manufactured to the required standard (a production or QC fault), this sensor has ultimately been shown to be unfit for the purpose intended and Leica need to address this in an appropriate manner. I'm not sure the current policy is appropriate.
xleic
Member
Do you think there will be a new statement to clarify these questions?
Michael Markey
Veteran
Judging by the way this is developing I think that they need to and rather quickly.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Unfortunately for manufacturers, any reaction by consumers doesn't have to be correct to cause damage. It's what manufacturers fear most when something does go wrong; i.e., how will the consumer respond. 'Damage control' isn't easy (and especially in the age of the interwebs.) Look at the "I'm not going to buy a digital Leica now!" responses already out there based on personal assumptions and perceptions. And sure, while it may be based on a very limited knowledge of the 'reality' of the situation.....that doesn't matter.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Which was why is wasn`t sensible to drop the bombshell into an old thread on the LUF forum instead of issuing a full and properly considered statement.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
I agree. Leica could probably use some lessons in 'sensible' marketing and press statements. imho, it seems that there's often way too much mythology entangled in their ad copy and not enough reality. And yeah, to drop in on a forum discussion to state a company's new policy towards a defect without even formally discussing the problem is pretty weird. Luckily they no longer have any public stockholders (although I wonder what Blackstone thinks.)
And yes, I'm a Leica owner and have been for a long, long time. Users can be (and should be) critical of the products they use. Hey, I always want to see improvements in the products I use.
yossarian123
Sam I Am
There's been 3 pages of reaction here (and an equal amount on LUF) - has anyone called Leica themselves to get a confirmation? I'm sure their repair dept would know by now if there's been a change to the official policy.
Honestly, if the camera can just sit there and the sensor will basically rot then that's unacceptable. I have both an M9 and MM and my long term plan was to keep both for as long as possible. This news if true would definitely change those plans.
Honestly, if the camera can just sit there and the sensor will basically rot then that's unacceptable. I have both an M9 and MM and my long term plan was to keep both for as long as possible. This news if true would definitely change those plans.
YYV_146
Well-known
If it is a sensor cleaning issue, why is Leica quoting this insane price for replacing the entire sensor? A sensor cover glass repair should not run over $300. In fact, even for the entire sensor assembly 1,800 euros sounds like extortion - how much are FF mirrorless bodies these days?
Anecdotal evidence about complaints? I know a dozen or so M9 owners. So far more than half of them had to have their camera go back to Leica for one reason or another. Cracked sensor cover glass, dead pixel lines, frequent card corruptions and delamination. One poor guy's M9 spend half its life in Solmes, as in four repairs with a total down time of 19 months. Don't know about you, but it's enough reason for me never to touch one of those.
If Leica wants to be responsible, it should take these cameras off users' hands. Offer a reasonable trade-in either towards a issue-free M-E/M type 240 or a film M. I think they've made it clear that this issue has and will not be completely resolved on future cameras, and not even on new sensors.
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Vince Lupo
Whatever
I just got off the phone with Mark in the technical support department at Leica NJ. He didn't know anything about the online frenzy that was going on, so I read some of it to him. He said that he had heard of some sensors having issues, but only ones that have been exposed to extremely humid conditions for an extended period of time. I asked him about 'wet' cleaning of sensors by owners themselves, and he personally didn't recommend it. He said that what can often happen is that residue gets stuck in the corners and stays there. I told him that I own a Monochrom, live in Baltimore (humid in the summertime, but I don't think it's the type and duration of humidity they're talking about), and only use a Rocket-type blower to clean dust off the sensor. Anything like a smudge or something that requires more extensive cleaning, I send to Leica. He said that if I keep doing what I'm doing, then I have nothing to worry about.
I did ask him about someone from Leica (he did not know JJ Viau) posting information on a forum, rather than in an 'official' capacity on the Leica website, and he said that he was going to look into it. I gave him the info for both the LUF thread and for this thread here. As far as he was aware, there was nothing 'official' from Leica regarding this issue. So it may possibly be internet overreaction, but don't quote me on that!
Personally, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not worry about it. Leica has been pretty responsive to any issues that I've had with my Monochrom (admittedly, it has had some, but fingers crossed it's fine now), so I'm just going to carry on and keep taking photos.
silverbullet
Well-known
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
"I have never had sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinski." Bill Clinton
Yeah, I have vaguely heard about a couple of sensors having issues but only in the swamps of Florida and Louisiana. Nothing on firm earth. You have nothing to worry about.