Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors

[yossarian123]

Thanks, so it still sounds like this could be a real policy by Leica and it just hasn't filtered it's way down through the bureaucracy yet.

I did a little bit of internet research - I believe JJ Viau was the employee at Leica that also posted about the M8 LCD policy. So he has some credibility.

I just got off the phone with Mark in the technical support department at Leica NJ. He didn't know anything about the online frenzy that was going on, so I read some of it to him. He said that he had heard of some sensors having issues, but only ones that have been exposed to extremely humid conditions for an extended period of time. I asked him about 'wet' cleaning of sensors by owners themselves, and he personally didn't recommend it. He said that what can often happen is that residue gets stuck in the corners and stays there. I told him that I own a Monochrom, live in Baltimore (humid in the summertime, but I don't think it's the type and duration of humidity they're talking about), and only use a Rocket-type blower to clean dust off the sensor. Anything like a smudge or something that requires more extensive cleaning, I send to Leica. He said that if I keep doing what I'm doing, then I have nothing to worry about.

I did ask him about someone from Leica (he did not know JJ Viau) posting information on a forum, rather than in an 'official' capacity on the Leica website, and he said that he was going to look into it. I gave him the info for both the LUF thread and for this thread here. As far as he was aware, there was nothing 'official' from Leica regarding this issue. So it may possibly be internet overreaction, but don't quote me on that!

Personally, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not worry about it. Leica has been pretty responsive to any issues that I've had with my Monochrom (admittedly, it has had some, but fingers crossed it's fine now), so I'm just going to carry on and keep taking photos.

 

[Vince Lupo]

It will be interesting to see if this issue is 'officially' posted on their website, newsfeed etc., rather than a camera forum. At the moment it's sounding like the Takata airbag of the camera world. Or at least people online are making it seem that way.

 

[silverbullet]

There are official emails from Leica to registered customers in Germany with the same content as shown in the LUF.

I guess this issue is like a tsunami for Leica, similar to the dreaded M8 UV filter campaign.
Here a thread in the French forum Summilux:

http://www.summilux.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=68458

 

[EdwardKaraa]

There are official emails from Leica to registered customers in Germany with the same content as shown in the LUF.

I guess this issue is like a tsunami for Leica, similar to the dreaded M8 UV filter campaign.
Here a thread in the French forum Summilux:

http://www.summilux.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=68458

Leica has probably anticipated this problem since it is not really news. It has been going on for a while, and most people who became aware of this problem have already had the sensor replaced.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Well, it makes my choice easier for used digital camera, if I have to. Leica is excluded, as bad lottery. It is now only between Sony and Canon for FF for me.
As of now I have no problem with wet cleaning of my Canon 5D sensor, because this old camera was made by manufacturer who seems to have some clue about digital cameras.

And I just ordered 200' of film under $100 as total for my beaten outside, yet beautiful M4-2 🙂.
Leica and Film - “together forever”!

 

[Vobluda]

Exactly, first official statement more than a year after major outbreak!

Leica has probably anticipated this problem since it is not really news. It has been going on for a while, and most people who became aware of this problem have already had the sensor replaced.

 

[Vobluda]

About the sensor blowing - my friend is working in official Canon service, reparing cameras ane lens for more than 30y, servicing digital cameras from the very begining. He says that blowing can easily blow dust under the IR sensor cover and that there is no way to get it out then.. So good luck with the blowing as well..

I just got off the phone with Mark in the technical support department at Leica NJ. He didn't know anything about the online frenzy that was going on, so I read some of it to him. He said that he had heard of some sensors having issues, but only ones that have been exposed to extremely humid conditions for an extended period of time. I asked him about 'wet' cleaning of sensors by owners themselves, and he personally didn't recommend it. He said that what can often happen is that residue gets stuck in the corners and stays there. I told him that I own a Monochrom, live in Baltimore (humid in the summertime, but I don't think it's the type and duration of humidity they're talking about), and only use a Rocket-type blower to clean dust off the sensor. Anything like a smudge or something that requires more extensive cleaning, I send to Leica. He said that if I keep doing what I'm doing, then I have nothing to worry about.

I did ask him about someone from Leica (he did not know JJ Viau) posting information on a forum, rather than in an 'official' capacity on the Leica website, and he said that he was going to look into it. I gave him the info for both the LUF thread and for this thread here. As far as he was aware, there was nothing 'official' from Leica regarding this issue. So it may possibly be internet overreaction, but don't quote me on that!

Personally, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not worry about it. Leica has been pretty responsive to any issues that I've had with my Monochrom (admittedly, it has had some, but fingers crossed it's fine now), so I'm just going to carry on and keep taking photos.

 

[Vince Lupo]

I think blowing with a bulb-type blower is fine - I'm not worried (if I were using canned air, I'd be a bit more concerned). Been doing it this way with all my digital cameras I use for work for the last 14 years. Plus, if there is any speck of dust here or there on the image, there's this thing called PhotoShop.....

 

[VertovSvilova]

About the sensor blowing - my friend is working in official Canon service, reparing cameras ane lens for more than 30y, servicing digital cameras from the very begining. He says that blowing can easily blow dust under the IR sensor cover and that there is no way to get it out then.. So good luck with the blowing as well..

Nikon specifically says to use a blower for cleaning the sensor of their cameras. It's in the user's manual (e.g., starting on page 394 of the D800 manual under the section "Cleaning." There are four pages on how to clean the sensor's cover with a blower.)

In addition, and just like ALL digital camera manufacturers, they also say this: "Dirt that cannot be removed with a blower can only be removed by Nikon-authorized service personnel. Under no circumstances should you touch or wipe the filter." None of the manufactures want you to risk scratching the cover glass of your sensor. But most everyone will wet clean the sensor themselves, and Nikon knows this. But obviously the user is normally not under warranty if they damage the sensor themselves.

Well, it makes my choice easier for used digital camera, if I have to. Leica is excluded, as bad lottery. It is now only between Sony and Canon for FF for me. As of now I have no problem with wet cleaning of my Canon 5D sensor, because this old camera was made by manufacturer who seems to have some clue about digital cameras.

And I just ordered 200' of film under $100 as total for my beaten outside, yet beautiful M4-2 🙂.
Leica and Film - “together forever”!

fwiw, I sold my M9 early on. Mainly because while I did like certain things about it (it is a digital true optical rangefinder that can use my Leica and M mount lenses natively), I also felt that in the end it wasn't really worth the high price tag to me. The electronic side of it was dated and not any better than other brands (plus the clunky shutter sound started to annoy me.) For me, Leica means their film cameras and the excellent optics for those cameras. I had hoped (and still do hope) that a digital Leica would be 'state of the art' like their rangefinder film cameras have been (or at least close to) over the decades.

I think I'd rather see Leica contract out all their sensors, electronics, and software coding to somebody well experienced like Sony. I have no issue with having Sony sensors in my cameras (Nikon uses them, and even Leica uses them in the X and T cameras.) We all use the same existing film types with any brand of film camera we have. So while the cameras and the lenses are different, we do use the same "sensors." And the manufacturers can still tweak their processors and their coding for their own specific signature (which is exactly what they do anyway.)

I do have faith that Leica will improve. Digital is relatively new for them and while it's unfortunate that they are using consumers as their test lab, they are learning. And they do know that they have to get better at it. In the meantime I'll personally sit them out for a while until a $6-7k camera is really a $6-7k camera and not just a "digital rangefinder" that can use Leica lenses.

 

[silverbullet]

It will be interesting to see if this issue is 'officially' posted on their website, newsfeed etc., rather than a camera forum. At the moment it's sounding like the Takata airbag of the camera world. Or at least people online are making it seem that way.

By not informing 'official' Leica protects the stock of new and used Ms on dealers' shelfs. And Leicas from sellers at ebay which don't know this issue because they aren't so active in forums.
With every week the clock is running against uninformed users because Leica established this repair programme with a fixed time table.

Curiosity: owners of defective M8 got an upgrade against payment for the M9, at the end the next trap…..

Even pictures out of the M9xxxx without visible spots are no guarantee for a good sensor, a check should be done with professional devices with magnifiers and light.

 

[V-12]

I think they've made it clear that this issue has and will not be completely resolved on future cameras, and not even on new sensors.

I am sorry, but you accuse me of anecdotal evidence and then you make wild conjectures about the future?!

I'm not going to re-write what I said all over again, to re-iterate the context and allow me to quote myself, because it was a long post, and it was deleted because of one word that appeared in it. But lets just say all the fuss being made is symptomatic of a few people now latching on to the situation and wanting a camera upgrade for free even if their camera hasn't got a problem. It is the 'I'm owed' society at work and with the scent of free money running rife no sense is going to be made in this thread so I quit arguing over it.

V

 

[btgc]

Obviously industry needs to address sensor cleaning issue as this should be considered a routine task. If lens is allowed to leave body then either make it way user can't easily ruin sensor or make cleaning easy, fast send-out maintenance routine (two months sounds so pre-XI to me). Really great would be to include three cleanings into the package, someone would use them over whole lifetime of camera or not use at all and someone go through in first 6 months, who cares just later they have to pay.

 

[silverbullet]

Obviously industry needs to address sensor cleaning issue as this should be considered a routine task. If lens is allowed to leave body then either make it way user can't easily ruin sensor or make cleaning easy, fast send-out maintenance routine (two months sounds so pre-XI to me). Really great would be to include three cleanings into the package, someone would use them over whole lifetime of camera or not use at all and someone go through in first 6 months, who cares just later they have to pay.

Leica has/had small movies on youtube and vimeo about wet cleaning as well as instructions on their homepage which had been removed in the last days. Clever users have already screen shots of the removed parts…..😎

 

[btgc]

Leica has/had small movies on youtube and vimeo about wet cleaning as well as instructions on their homepage which had been removed in the last days. Clever users have already screen shots of the removed parts…..😎

Internet age suggests manufacturer can easily supply latest maintenance advices and update them as changes occur (remember days when manuals and videos arrived on round shiny discs, btw where they were supposed to put, under coffee mug?!?).

Another thing would be sensor cleaning sensor that would register physical touches to sensor (or glass in front of it, rather) so if manual states don't touch it there would be some evidence rather than technicians opinion IKNOWBETTER.

 

[Highway 61]

I don't think any recent product has been beat up more than the Nikon Df. I've owned both an M9 and currently own a Df. The beating Nikon has taken would have been praise if the Df had a red dot on the front. The beating that Nikon has taken wasn't even over performance and reliabity. It was over cosmetics. I'm afraid it all about the name.

This is not all true. The Df got it because of its questionable ergonomics, just above average build quality with a mix-up of different materials including plastic, and basic viewfinder without OEM interchangeable screens. This "beating" came from faithful Nikonians being heavily disappointed by the camera, in comparison with what it could (and should) have been.

Of course there was some mockery out there coming from people not liking the Df cosmetics, but those weren't people having waited for the camera with some hot interest, and this was quite marginal.

Back to the topic : Leica strategy is clearly achieved to bring M9 and M9-P owners to purchase an M240. There are even offers sent to owners of M9s and M9-Ps with delaminating sensors for a discount on a new M240 if they agree to leave their ill M9s and M9-Ps at the factory forever...

Not stupid afterall.

There is nothing more outrageous in what they do than what Nikon did with the D600.

Seems that dirty sensors is the main problem of the digital age, in spite of all automatic cleaning devices implemented inside the cameras...

 

[Richard G]

Six months since my nearly three year old M9 sensor was replaced. I change lenses occasionally. I might have Giotto blown it once since. Monochrom one year old now. Sensor recently remapped for one misbehaving pixel, for free. Two cameras with inevitable cover glass problems still? I assume so, but I am not panicking. It is easy to forget how marvellous these cameras are. One of them goes with me to work every day and out for a walk at lunchtime. They've worked as I've wanted and surpassed my expectations. All my lenses remain in play. Worst case scenario I'll be back to film again for most things in about ten years, still not needing new lenses. See Mike Johnston's letter to George (The Onlne Photographer) about the near $20k you can spend to eventually arrive at your destination of full frame versatility and some fast primes. I've always been there. I hardly have or have had one dud camera. So I have to replace one more sensor or two in ten years? For what these cameras can do? So be it. And there's a plan of the manufacturer to be in a position to offer this for a decade? With stepped subsidies? Wow. Just wow.

 

[Highway 61]

Six months since my nearly three year old M9 sensor was replaced. I change lenses occasionally. I might have Giotto blown it once since. Monochrom one year old now. Sensor recently remapped for one misbehaving pixel, for free. Two cameras with inevitable cover glass problems still? I assume so, but I am not panicking. It is easy to forget how marvellous these cameras are. One of them goes with me to work every day and out for a walk at lunchtime. They've worked as I've wanted and surpassed my expectations. All my lenses remain in play. Worst case scenario I'll be back to film again for most things in about ten years, still not needing new lenses. See Mike Johnston's letter to George (The Onlne Photographer) about the near $20k you can spend to eventually arrive at your destination of full frame versatility and some fast primes. I've always been there. I hardly have or have had one dud camera. So I have to replace one more sensor or two in ten years? For what these cameras can do? So be it. And there's a plan of the manufacturer to be in a position to offer this for a decade? With stepped subsidies? Wow. Just wow.

Nice post, good to read this.

If you think of film Leica M cameras, lots of them had problems as well (shutter capping at 1/1000, slow speeds easily gumming up, RF patches flaring like crazy on some M6s, vulcanite getting brittle, poor quality black chrome finish on the M4-2 and M4-P, etc).

A camera is a precision tool. As well manufactured as it can be, it cannot be perfect.

Even when it's very expensive. Leica never threatened anybody so that they bought their cameras.

Yes, Leica still surf on their "A Leica for a lifetime" old saying. So what ? They would be stupid if they weren't.

 

[Vobluda]

Sorry, but compared to Nikon what Leica has done is completely outrageous.
Nikon will replace either shutter or camera in case of D600 for unlimited period of time for free. And it doesn't matter where has the camera been purchased and when.
Also, the issue has been solved with D610.

Compare it to Leica prices for shutter replacement and the fact that the issues has not been solved. Even though they are aware of the issue they are still both selling and producing cameras that could be affected.

There is nothing more outrageous in what they do than what Nikon did with the D600.

 

[Mcary]

Are you sure?

There's a video showing an M9 being assembled which clearly shows the "Sensor Unit" including circuit board, sensor, and sensor cover coming from the sensor maker as a single unit. Leica's a camera not an electronic company so its likely that all its sensor units come from the subcontractor(s) as an assembled unit ready to be inserted into the camera body by Leica.

 

[Highway 61]

Sorry, but compared to Nikon what Leica has done is completely outrageous.
Nikon will replace either shutter or camera in case of D600 for unlimited period of time for free. And it doesn't matter where has the camera been purchased and when.
Also, the issue has been solved with D610.

Compare it to Leica prices for shutter replacement and the fact that the issues has not been solved. Even though they are aware of the issue they are still both selling and producing cameras that could be affected.

Maybe. I don't own any Leica digital M so, not having been involved myself, I can only see it through an external window, and it looks like Leica do their best to solve it the way they can without having this driving them to bankrupt.

The release of the M-E might have been their worst idea, given that it's been released after they became aware of the problem which had affected many M9s and M9-Ps already.

Clearly the best solution for any M digital user onwards from now is to get an M240. Of course, it's not a freebie.