Leica's Snail Paced Production (or lack thereof)

[dcsang]

I'm not going to go for the M9.
Why?
As Chris stated, the "high" ISO isn't good enough.

I know that the M(240) will be good at ISO3200 - that's fine - I don't need ridiculously high ISO but I do need at least that. Also, as Chris has stated, the reason why I still have the D700 until the M(240) comes in.

So.. who knows why they're not being delivered - I've called Montreal (to Camtec), I've talked to my local retailer (Merkle) and even went to the west coast (Vancouver/Richmond) where the only "official" Leica boutique in Canada is located. I had hoped, in talking with them, they may be able to shed some light - after all, they're official right? Surely they're receiving a little bit more or, perhaps, at least a little more often than the other retailers I've spoken with.

You'd think so....

Here's, word for word, what I was told by their online sales person in a chat window from their website (after explaining to them that I was told here, in Toronto, that it would be 2014 before I got one):

"Hi Dave thanks for waiting. It looks like we are in a similar situation with our pre-orders there are 10 or so people already on the wait list for the black M. Currently we are getting on average 1 camera per month so unless the situation changes we will be unable to provide an ETA as to when the order would be filled. "

Ya.. so the official Leica Boutique store gets, on average, 1 camera a month...
like Jaap has said, it really looks like you have to find the one store on this planet that has a waiting list of 0-1 in order to get your camera that you order today, a month or two from now. 😀

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Keith]

One camera a month! 😱

This perceived shortage really ramps up the desire I guess and Leica knows this very well. 🙄

 

[kingqueenknave]

In my experience, & I'm sure Dave agrees, the M9/M-E's relatively poor high ISO performance makes it less than ideal for shooting weddings & similar events in available light, at least the parts that take place indoors.

True, but I suppose that's why he still has the D700, as heavy as it is (& why bring up film, it's 2013, dude).

It is is "MUCH" worse than the 240, which brings us full circle.

If one can't make the M9 ISO performance work to shoot an event, one probably shouldn't be getting paid to shoot anything.

2013, or not, just shoot film.

 

[sepiareverb]

M-E models seem readily available, and of course there are a lot of M9s available used these days.

Not mine. 🙂

G

Nor mine. Neither of them.

I'm not going to go for the M9.
Why?
As Chris stated, the "high" ISO isn't good enough.

I know that the M(240) will be good at ISO3200 - that's fine - I don't need ridiculously high ISO but I do need at least that.

Never seen a wedding shot on TMAX or Delta 3200! How did you ever manage before the Canon?

If one can't make the M9 ISO performance work to shoot an event, one probably shouldn't be getting paid to shoot anything.

2013, or not, just shoot film.

There isn't any decent 3200 speed film at all- they're all so noisy.

This whole thread seems like a big whine about something that wasn't a problem ten years ago for anyone - not being able to have noiseless images when using ISO 3200. ISO 3200 is the minimum for shooting a wedding nowadays? Really? How was it ever done in the 00's?

 

[splitimageview]

Heck, how was it done in the 80s (when I was) or even the 40s (when my parents got married?)

🙂

 

[dcsang]

Nor mine. Neither of them.



Never seen a wedding shot on TMAX or Delta 3200! How did you ever manage before the Canon?



There isn't any decent 3200 speed film at all- they're all so noisy.

This whole thread seems like a big whine about something that wasn't a problem ten years ago for anyone - not being able to have noiseless images when using ISO 3200. ISO 3200 is the minimum for shooting a wedding nowadays? Really? How was it ever done in the 00's?

Here's the issue.
1) Other wedding photographers can "show" potential clients "noiseless" images that they've shot recently. Said potential clients ask to me to see images of weddings I've shot, specifically the low lit reception "first dance" etc. - they get either flash or they get grainy Tmax 3200 made to look "artistic" - who do you think they'll go with?

2) I've shot film for weddings. I go back to 2001 (yes.. that's not that long ago) and as recent as last year. *I* like it and *I* think it's good enough but this isn't about ME when I'm getting paid to do something - it's about what the client wants.

I can totally shoot with a flash for fill - it can be done - but the client has to be pleased with it. I can shoot film and have - the client has to understand that it's not going to look like the files they get for digital. They can and do understand but those clients are not around as much anymore. As much as we want to cling to it here and as much as *I* still cling to it for personal work, digital is here to stay and "noiseless" digital has been around for the last 5 years at least so it would be nice to provide clients with that.

Let me see if I can state this again - I CAN WAIT FOR THE CAMERA - 😀 - I can always stash away $$$ for the camera. I'm just surprised that there's a shortage and I'm curious why there's a shortage specifically in this little rinky dink country of Canada 😀 - and, if anyone cares to go back to my original post they'll see my original question was to poll folks here:
Anyone else still waiting or deciding on giving up?

No one has actually answered that question yet. 🙂

Cheers,
Dave

 

[user237428934]

Heck, how was it done in the 80s (when I was) or even the 40s (when my parents got married?)

🙂

At that time there was only posed photo from the wedding where the photographer had the chance to move to a well lit spot. Nowadays shots of the whole day a being made where the photographer has to handle some darker locations. I think wedding photography is more documentary than 20 years ago.

 

[Fraser]

I can imagine it must be very annoying having to wait when you are all ready for a new body. I've never really seen any problems with high iso on the M9 as 1600 iso is ok and since all my lenses are at least 1 stop faster than my dslr lenses its not really an issue. I know you have decided to get the new M but if it was me (don't shoot me down in flames) and I needed something with good high iso and fill flash I would go for a Canon 5dmk3 in fact I would buy two for the price of one M.
Good luck hope you get one soon.

 

[sepiareverb]

Anyone else still waiting or deciding on giving up?

No one has actually answered that question yet. 🙂

I'm not in line at all as my M9's are plenty fast for my needs. I guess maybe I just don't know what noise is.

 

[splitimageview]

There is something to be said for waiting, as it does give Leica time to address issues that may arise, and improve the color balance that many early adopters are not pleased with. Steve Huff is having to send his back due to sensor issues for example. I for one would not like to have 7k tied up in a camera that will be in repair for several weeks/months...better to wait til the teething has passed. Try shooting a wedding when the camera is @ Solms! ISO 3200 doesn't do much good in that case. 🙂

 

[dcsang]

There is something to be said for waiting, as it does give Leica time to address issues that may arise, and improve the color balance that many early adopters are not pleased with. Steve Huff is having to send his back due to sensor issues for example. I for one would not like to have 7k tied up in a camera that will be in repair for several weeks/months...better to wait til the teething has passed. Try shooting a wedding when the camera is @ Solms! ISO 3200 doesn't do much good in that case. 🙂

Totally agree with this.

This is the one thing I fear - greatly - because of my previous experience with Leica and the M8 (had to send mine back to Solms after only a week of usage - a line of dead pixels across the sensor - so, since then, I've been once bitten twice shy) but my hope is that CMOSIS actually have a decent method of producing good sensors (hence my waiting till at least March/April when there were some out in the wild to see results before blindly plunking down a deposit).

I'll wait it out and take solace in the fact that I am not the only one doing so. 🙂

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Godfrey]

... Try shooting a wedding when the camera is @ Solms! ISO 3200 doesn't do much good in that case. 🙂

I wouldn't go to shoot a paid wedding with any camera that
a) I haven't tested thoroughly.
b) I don't have at least two of in my gear bag.

So, if I were a wedding photographer, that means I don't need an M, I need two of them. Place order, shoot with my existing gear until they arrive for testing. Be happy.

(When I did shoot weddings, I used a Rolleiflex TLR and a Nikon F—they were current then—so I had a tested, spare in my bag for each. Never needed them, but I just don't go on a paid shoot without being absolutely sure the equipment will do the job. Pilot error ... eh, nothing can guard against that. ;-))

G

 

[dcsang]

I wouldn't go to shoot a paid wedding with any camera that
a) I haven't tested thoroughly.
b) I don't have at least two of in my gear bag.

So, if I were a wedding photographer, that means I don't need an M, I need two of them. Place order, shoot with my existing gear until they arrive for testing. Be happy.

(When I did shoot weddings, I used a Rolleiflex TLR and a Nikon F—they were current then—so I had a tested, spare in my bag for each. Never needed them, but I just don't go on a paid shoot without being absolutely sure the equipment will do the job. Pilot error ... eh, nothing can guard against that. ;-))

G

True enough.
Based on the length of time to get a single M (or order two) I should have enough money saved for both by the time they get delivered 😀 😀 😀

Cheers,
Dave

 

[furcafe]

Haven't seen any weddings shot on Tmax/Delta 3200 recently. Also, you might have some problems converting those TMax or Delta 3200 shots to color if that's what the bride wants! 😉

Whether it's relevant to your photography or not, high ISO performance is an integral part of a lot of current documentary work (& that, broadly defined, includes a good chunk of wedding shooting), along w/video. Unless they're into a retro look (& I'm sure there are a few hipsters out there who want wet plate, etc., to go w/their beards [Edit: e.g., http://petapixel.com/2013/07/15/wedding-tintype-portraits-with-a-massive-20x24-1800s-camera/ ], I'm guessing most clients want something up to date & don't care what was acceptable 10 years ago.

Also, it's not like you can't get great high ISO performance in a *camera* right now, you just can't get it in a traditional RF body without spending a fortune (& the 240 is good, but not great). And that is indeed a 1st World Problem.

. . .

Never seen a wedding shot on TMAX or Delta 3200! How did you ever manage before the Canon?


There isn't any decent 3200 speed film at all- they're all so noisy.

This whole thread seems like a big whine about something that wasn't a problem ten years ago for anyone - not being able to have noiseless images when using ISO 3200. ISO 3200 is the minimum for shooting a wedding nowadays? Really? How was it ever done in the 00's?