M2 - should I ask for a refund?

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mutikonka

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I've always wanted a Leica M2 and have just received my long awaited camera in the post from an ebay seller. Unfortunately, despite being advertised as being in 'very clean ... very good condition inside and out', it seems to me to be in terrible condition. It has extensive brassing on the right hand side and there are chips of leatherette missing at the bottom. (The seller said it had 'some wear around the strap lugs').

The camera was advertised with a minimal description but from an apparently reputable private seller. I presumed that the picture provided was of the actual camera, but as you can see it certainly is not.

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My other concern is that the film advance seem quite rough and jerky. The camera seems to be in working order but appears to have been very heavily used.

Is this a case of caveat emptor or do you think I have the right to a refund? And if I am stuck with the camera, do the M2s still perform well after a lifetime of heavy use?

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If the photo in the ad is not the camera you got - and the seller said the photos in the ad were of the actual camera for sale, then you certainly have a right to a refund it seems to me - PLUS the postage. At least I would not accept this. I tend to stay away from cameras on e-bay with "minimal descriptions". Ebay is nuts. Somtimes sellers seem genuinely upset that they have misrepresented their item and bend over backwards to avoid a negative feedback. I've received non-functioning cameras that were advertised as "perfect working order" and when I ask for a refund, they do so right away and don't even want the camera back. On the other hand, sellers can be really arrogant and impossible. You never know.
 
I would send it back. At the very least the sellers description was innaccurate. While it's just a camera, with the prices of Leicas you must be careful to invest wisely and care for that investment. A good M2 is worth holding out for. Good Luck. Joe
 
I personally would certainly ask for a refund. If you purchased via paypal you may also consider opening a dispute and they will freeze the sellers funds for the amount you paid. You have recourse in this instance. Good luck.
 
Thanks - I was really looking forward to getting a Leica M2 after reading about them on this forum, so I am rather disappointed to say the least. I've bought a couple of cameras before on ebay from local sellers and never had any problems.

I was expecting a 'user' camera rather than a collectors item, but this M2 does not inspire confidence. It looks like it went through a war and came out on the losing side. Is is common for Leica Ms to literally wear out? This one feels like it's on its last legs ...

I have contacted the seller but had no reply as yet.
 
Ridiculous! Send it back and ask for cost plus shipping both ways. IMO ebay is the riskiest way to buy unless you know the seller or have specific recommendations from people you trust.

If you used paypal you have recourse and financial leverage.
 
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I don't know what you paid for it... maybe the amount of $$$ is entirely appropriate for a camera in that condition.

Were you looking for a looker or a shooter? If the advert implied the picture was the camera offered, put the seller under pressure until he screams and gives a refund. Unless you got it for 50$ that is.

If it WORKS and you payed little for it. I personally would keep it. Spend a few bucks on a CLA and you are good to go for 30 odd years.
 
I would definitely send it back, as he clearly not only misrepresented the item, but he most likely just stole an image off of the web to represent the camera. Ask for the full refund, plus the cost of shipping both ways, and leave negative feedback. It is things like this that make me not use ebay. Not enough people really put the screw to bad sellers. I would recommend buying a camera either from here (from someone that other rffers have either done business with or have interacted with for a long time, check the seller's post count), or from a reputable seller like keh or tamarkin. If you do use ebay, look for people who either operate small brick and mortar camera stores, or are well known in the photo community for being straight shooters. Also, don't be afraid to ask for more photos of an item, and if the person refuses, don't purchase from them.
 
Post the auction number. All these people yelling "refund" do not know what you paid for it or what was actually in the description and photos.

You may have paid a very good price for a camera which is in perfectly good working condition.

It certainly doesn't look like it was in a "war". Be realistic.
 
Ahmed Poltroon said:
Post the auction number. All these people yelling "refund" do not know what you paid for it or what was actually in the description and photos.

You may have paid a very good price for a camera which is in perfectly good working condition.

It certainly doesn't look like it was in a "war". Be realistic.
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This is just my opinion, and I don't think it is required policy by Ebay, but i consider it a best practice to either use an actual picture of an item, or to inform the potential customer that it is a stock photo of an item. To do neither is, in my opinion, misrepresentation. Obviously, if you are selling a thousand brand new boxed nikons, you aren't going to photograph every single one, as a photograph of one of them is clearly representative of the lot, but if you are selling a single used item, or even a small handful of the same used item, in a setting such as ebay or craigslist, a photograph is assumed to be of the actual item unless otherwise stated. Even though I do not buy from ebay, I do browse it a decent bit in order to establish current values of various items, and a lot of sellers do these things, so I don't consider it unreasonable. Lies of omission are still deceptive practices, and while there may very well be a bit of a caveat emptor lesson in this for the buyer, it does not excuse the seller.
 
Looks alright to me, from what I can tell from both photos. It all depends on what you want (personally I -like- beaters) and what you paid for it.

Most M2's need servicing after 50/60 years, that is a fact. If you paid a low price, and are OK with the brassing, get a CLA. And replace the vulcanite, if it really bothers you.

Getting refunds are not always so easy on Ebay, just keep that in mind.
 
awilder said:
Buy your M from RFF classifieds, there's far less chance of surprise!
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There are dishonest sellers everywhere. On the classifieds I got beat once and one time a lens was misrepresented. People are people. That said, ebay is riskier. Just don't expect everyone on this board to be personifications of trust and honesty. Use your head. KEH is the place where I'd always start my search if I were you.
 
Since we do not have the eBay description or the full ad, nor what was paid for the camera and only the buyer's remorse I'll make a few points as a seller -

1) the two pictures of the M2 don't look that different, by adjusting contrast,etc you can hide a lot.
2) if you expect a camera that is a half century old to function like a new one your going to be sorely disappointed. Many of these cameras have never been serviced and unless stated otherwise you should assume it's going to need a CLA.
3) No matter how well stored or taken care of the Vulcanite breaks off.
4) Camera doesn't look "heavily used". If you want to see heavily used I'll send you a pic of my M4. Just overhauled by Y. Ye and works great.
5) Not knowing what you paid for it I can't tell if you got a good deal or not. Rather then spend all the money on shipping the camera back and forth you might just want to get it overhauled.

I've been trading / selling cameras for years and never hesitate to take one back. However I've been PO'd a number of times when the camera is accurately described but for some reason the buyer thinks he's getting a brand new camera. I sold an M3 on this site a few years ago to nice guy from Britain. He was going to be in New York and wanted it overnight to use while he was here. I bent over backwards to get it to him. A month later when he returns to Britain he writes me a litany about what's wrong with the camera. It took me two months to get it back. So I get a little peeved when people whine because a half century old camera isn't what they expected.
 
FWIW, the two photos are obviously not the same camera. The first one is a "stock" photo. The second is how I'd expect a 30 year old camera to look.

If I thought I got a fair price I'd send the camera off be CLA'D and just enjoy it as a user camera.

If I was buying a collectible based upon the first picture I'd send it back.

As a buyer on any web site I always ask the seller questions about the item, the ad, and return policy. Let's me know if the person is responsible enough to answer questions politely and quickly. Any resistance to provide information is a red flag.
 
My knee-jerk reaction was that the original poster probably had unrealistic expectations. But then I gave the pictures a good look - they are misleading at best.

He is not out of line addressing that with the seller.

Good luck!
 
I have to agree with those who've asked to see the original ad. There does seem to be mispresentation in the photos - but I can't say the actual camera appears to be in "terrible condition."
Price really is key here. If you paid $700 for it, then I'd want to send it back. If you paid $400 for it, you might better off keeping it and getting a CLA.

No reason to panic or anything - assuming you used paypal. If you did, you have all the leverage, and he has none. He can willingly do a refund, or you can force one on him by disputing it. Paypal's policies are heavily weighted in favor of the buyer.

Personally, I'd give the guy a chance to respond to your concerns before escalating to to a dispute with paypal/ebay. You guys could work out a compromise - with him giving you a partial refund to help pay for CLA.
 
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