M8 as a black and white only instead of Fuji XE1

[Thomased]

I have had an itch for a Leica for some time, but have always been talked out of it a some point or another. After many years of DSLR shooting, more recently Canon 5d2 and heavyweight lenses, I decided to buy into mirrorless systems and went with the Fuji XE1. I love that camera and the images it produces. It is a fantastic tool, and there is no doubt Fuji are doing great things. It is a very good all-rounder.
My main interest these days is black and white and I hear and read so many things about how good the M8 is due to the weak IR filter. This really attracts me to it. I worry a little about the old tech, but the images I see convince me it is not an issue. I worry a little about the dynamic range of the M8 versus the XE1. I do already have a couple of (very) old Leitz lenses (Summicron 50 f2, Elmarit 90) which I use and love on my XE1. I can get one at a good price with a years warranty, so failures are not a huge worry.
The real question remains though. Is it appreciably better than an XE1 in good light for BW photography or can the shortfalls of the xe1 be made up for in PP. Of course there is more than IQ in question and I appreciate it is the rangefinder experience that is also a big factor, but that is easier for me to address. The rangefinder interface appeals a lot, but I do also want an image quality at least as good as my xe1 in good light.
Those of you who use both - how do you view the differences? Where do the strengths in the M8 lie over the XE1 specifically for BW images?

 

[jsrockit]

I'm not so sure I feel the M8 is any better for B&W vs. the Fuji (despite what many around here say). I can tell you that the M8 blows highlights a lot easier. 😉 However, in good light as you say, the M8 can still make some nice results. I would concentrate on learning your new camera and PP. You'll still generally need to PP your M8 files too.

 

[LateStart]

I had and used an M8 for three years before upgrading to M9. It is a nice device and good images. Puts/Takes:

For Leica
> Nice in the hand
> Nice to look at device
> Very simple, easy-to-use controls
> Most of depreciation has happened (buy for $1500, sell for $1000 in a year?)

Against M8
> Prone to operational / repair issues, expensive to fix
> Metering is less accurate
> Slow writes to cards
> PITA for color -- need expensive filters (not an issue for you)

 

[Digital Fragrance]

I'm not so sure I feel the M8 is any better for B&W vs. the Fuji (despite what many around here say). I can tell you that the M8 blows highlights a lot easier. 😉 However, in good light as you say, the M8 can still make some nice results. I would concentrate on learning your new camera and PP. You'll still generally need to PP your M8 files too.

The Leica M8 is a full manual camera. This camera can't blow highlights. If they are, you did it.

 

[1joel1]

The M8 is the poor man's Monochrom. I'll never sell mine and when I can afford an M9 or later, I'll keep my M8 for B&W only. Using it for color isn't that bad at all, but for B&W, it is superb.

Joel

 

[back alley]

i would think the biggest difference between the two would be the photographer.

 

[Thomased]

Thanks for the replies so far. I guess “better” is somewhat vague and personal so I should stray away from such terms, so what do you prefer about the M8 vs XE1. I have been using the XE1 pretty much since it was released and before that used an X100 as a supplement to the 5D2. I still have and use both, but the the 5d2 really only for specialist jobs these days, and recently even then the XE1 has been used as an extra option with great effect. It is a very easy camera to use and get on with and I have very few complaints about it, so the M8 idea really is a sideline and will certainly not replace the fuji. I will keep it for sure. Up until the most recent update, my only slight complaint was on MF on the fuji, but the focus peaking really improves this and using the M glass is very easy indeed now. The M8 will be used purely as a BW specialist if I feel it is worth the outlay in initial cost for a more interesting tool with more interesting results.

 

[jsrockit]

The Leica M8 is a full manual camera. This camera can't blow highlights. If they are, you did it.

That's true... but in certain situations, the Fujis will recover what the M8 won't. That is what I meant. We all want to be 100% accurate with our exposures, but in certain situations, it isn't possible.

 

[Peter_S]

The M8 is a nice camera, no doubt. That said, after using the M8, Sigma DPs and Leica X1 (and film) for b/w work side-by-side, I think the superiority of the M8 for b/w is bit of a myth that gets carried around. For that alone I would not trade/sell/buy/loose sleep/browse message boards, etc. The rangefinder-thingy and selection of lenses - now that are reasons, I suppose.

The M8 is mainly a good b/w camera because a lot of capable b/w shooters use it. That said, the output of the M8 IS very friendly for b/w conversions...unless you blow the highlights or the banding at higher ISOs creeps in. I found the X1 as capable after adjusting my pp-routine a bit.

The M8 is lovely. It has a fairly large sensor and stellar lenses. Get it if you enjoy the overall experience...or if you want to try it and you think it gets you out taking more images.
And if digital b/w at low ISO is your thing...have a look at the Sigmas.

 

[jsrockit]

And if digital b/w at low ISO is your thing...have a look at the Sigmas.

I agree...

 

[Thomased]

The M8 is mainly a good b/w camera because a lot of capable b/w shooters use it.

Very good point!

The M8 is lovely. It has a fairly large sensor and stellar lenses. Get it if you enjoy the overall experience..

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head with this post. It is probably not so much about the IQ, but the whole process, and I think maybe that is what is drawing me. I love the feel of the Leica’s and there is something about the weight and solidity that has to be appreciated as well as the beautiful simplicity. Very superficial, I know, but true!

 

[jsrockit]

I love the feel of the Leica’s and there is something about the weight and solidity that has to be appreciated as well as the beautiful simplicity. Very superficial, I know, but true!

Not superficial at all... ergonomics are important to many. It's one of the only digital cameras that feels like a film camera. When you want an all manual digital Leica, nothing else will do.

 

[johannielscom]

The Leica M8 is a full manual camera. This camera can't blow highlights. If they are, you did it.

Yet, dynamic range is more limited than it is in the Fuji. So, if you're striving to retain some detail in darker portions of the photograph, you could blow out highlights.

What you're saying is do not blow out the highlights and live with limited detail in darker portions.

Why not have both and shoot the Fuji?


Anyway, 'having warranty' won't cut it anymore in certain situations, since Leitz is out of repair parts for several issues. The coffee stains in the LCD cannot be remedied anymore, since there are no LCD screens in stock, and the manufacturer doesn't produce them anymore. IIRC, sensor issues also leave you with a pricey paperweight. Shutter faults? Not sure on that one. Anybody?

I would not buy an M8. It has gone the way of the Hexar RF, which cannot be serviced anymore either, or only with great difficulty.


Buy a Ricoh GXR-Mount! Most capable B&W IMNSHO😀

 

[enero]

I have/had both and really enjoy using the M8 for B&W and Infrared photography (color is meh.). The M8 is much easier to (manually) focus then the Fujis which is pretty key since I'm not a fan of the XF lenses, and prefer using on M-mount lenses on both.

Depending on your conditions (lenses, scene, handling) the M8 is pretty spectacular with B&W. Straight out of the camera, I think it blows the X Line away. The Fujis aint no slouches either, but I think the files require a little more post work to get it's B&W image to the caliber of the M8's.

I sold off my M8 last year and have missed it every day since. I have another on the way, and cant wait to get it!

 

[willie_901]

I enjoyed reading the informative and thoughtful answers to this thread.

This thread is an example of RFF at it's best.

 

[hepcat]

Why not have both and shoot the Fuji?

Here's the main reason: The Fuji won't manual focus without using the EVF. Using the OVF, the autofocus system can miss focus, give a focus confirmation indicator on the background and you can blow focus on one out of three images; particularly close-up with a large aperture and off-center subject. And then there's the total lack of tactile feedback from the lenses. You might as well be spinning a bicycle wheel on a truing stand as spin the focus ring on a drive-by-wire lens. The experience is about the same.

The reasons to buy an M8 are many; few have to do with image quality. Leicas are the only manual coincident-rangefinder cameras out there. If that's what fits your shooting style, there's nothing else that will do.

If you can live with EVFs (I can't) then there are a dozen brands out there that will make competent images. If you want a digital manual coincident rangefinder body, there's Leica and you either pay the price of admission or you don't. If you're on a limited budget, there's the M8.

The up-side to buying into Leica is that you can use either film or digital with the same lenses on bodies that all operate from essentially the same simple control set.

That about sums it up.

 

[aldobonnard]

I agree with the above, having an M8 and having had an X-Pro1 (sent back).

The main thing which puts me off with the M8 is how sensitive to lenses calibration it is.
The X-E1/X-Pro1 will need to switch to EVF so as to manual focus properly - otherwise use zone focus with M-lenses -. Sadly, using an EVF is not a fantastic user experience. In all honesty... I dislike it with passion.
Focus peaking works, but this is not as fast as using a viewfinder. On the other hand, since what you see is what you shoot, a live view EVF overcomes some lenses issues - good calibration, focus shift - which are a pain in the neck with OVFs.
It can't be either / or, for me. Both cameras are great with IQ. Colour/BW : I prefer the Fuji X for colour, by far, as the white balance is always spot on, and the M8 for B&W, also by far, because you can use these great old lenses like Summicron/Lux pre-asph, Summarit 50/1.5, etc... which are kind with contrast and highlights, plus you get this extra IR effect when shooting without an UV/IR filter.
Best advice: try an M8 for a day and see by yourself ?

 

[gavinlg]

Using the OVF, the autofocus system can miss focus, give a focus confirmation indicator on the background and you can blow focus on one out of three images; particularly close-up with a large aperture and off-center subject.

Honestly, thats crap. The fuji focusses pretty damn well and is super accurate if you know what you are doing.

 

[Lss]

Honestly, thats crap. The fuji focusses pretty damn well and is super accurate if you know what you are doing.

Honestly, you can be satisfied with a camera that does not fit the needs of someone else. There need not be any user error.

 

[GaryLH]

Using the OVF, the autofocus system can miss focus, give a focus confirmation indicator on the background and you can blow focus on one out of three images; particularly close-up with a large aperture and off-center subject..

The ovf is offset.. As u get closer, of course the focus square is not going to be an accurate indicator of where u need to be. It assumes a certain distance away from the camera. It does not know where to start moving the af target box until u half press the shutter.. The default for the camera in the menus does not show the offset brackets.. I always thought Fuji should have had it enabled by default.. Which gives u a general indication of where u should be pointing instead for af target. General rule of thumb for me has always been, if subject is around an arms length switch to evf.

Gary