M8 / CCD - ISO 'limitations' try ASA 25 !

Actually, I would love to have an ISO 25 digital sensor with excellent (ie colour-negative-like) dynamic range.

I do not care very much for high-ISO in modern digital cameras - it is low ISO noise and dynamic range that I find limiting. The only work-around for this is to take multiple exposures and average these digitally - something which is difficult with the low shutter rate of the Leica M cameras.

For digital imaging very low ISOs (25) are a challenge. The pinned photo-diode electrical charge density (electrons per unit area) must be very high. Few commercial options exist.

A base, or native, ISO of 100 is available for many digital cameras.

I don't think "low ISO noise" is a thing. If we assume maximum sensor exposure, at base ISO the electronic noise is very low. The photon (quantum or shot) noise is also as low as possible.

As ISO increases the meter tells us to decrease exposure. The decreased exposure is purposeful. It becomes possible to use shorter shutter times and, or narrower apertures. But compared to base (native) ISO, exposure decreases. So, the analog DC signals from the sensor are amplified to make full use of the analog-to-difital converter. The best data stream technologies add almost no electronic noise due to analog signal amplification. However the photon noise increases because less light is recorded. In contemporary digital camera images photon noise is much higher than electronic noise. Photon noise is beyond human control since it an inherent property of light.

The maximum analog dynamic range when the shutter is open depends directly on the signal-to-noise ratio – which depend on exposure. The analog dynamic is always highest at base ISO. A sensor with a 25 base ISO would have very high dynamic range because the maximum possible signal level would be four times higher than a camera with a base ISO of 100. This link compared measured dynamic ranges for the Nikon D810 and some Leica M bodies. The D810 has a base ISO of 64. Note how the dynamic range becomes similar for all three cameras by ISO 200. Also, the decrease in dynamic range as ISO increases is almost identical as well.

Here's a comparison of the electronic noise (no signal present) vs ISO for the same cameras. The electronic noise does not decrease as ISO is lowered below the native ISO. The M10 noise level at ISO 100 is barely higher than the D810's at ISO 64. However the signal levels would be different. The increase in signal levels is responsible for the higher dynamic range at base ISOs 64, 100 and 200 for the D810, M10 and M240 respectively.

Practically all digital cameras offer ISO settings below base ISO. These are artificial values achieved by setting exposure above the metered value and then decreasing the raw file numbers by digital division. These lower ISO settings are a convenience to avoid ND filters. The noise vs ISO data above shows for contemporary cameras electronic noise levels do not increase at artificially lower ISOs .
 
My personal film of choice when the sun has settled is Ektar 100. It ticks the boxes I struggle with the most, such as colour. Good photography isn't easy but I definitely don't think the technical bit is the hardest. It's the same thing when trying to explain to someone why you prefer a prime lens when you could have a zoom lens. Being able to shoot a black cat in a coal mine at F8 and 1000th/sec isn't a game changer.

Never tried 100, but Ektar 25 sold before 1985 was OUTSTANDING.

No grain at 16x20. sharp as you could want.
 
But this is informed by the limitations of past equipment. Color wasn't right in photography because B&W was first. High ISO isn't right in photography because low ISO was first. If there had been high ISO film right from the start, then it would be natural.

However, I do get what you are saying... making a night photo look like daytime isn't my type of photography either. But you can make a ISO 20000 photo of night that looks like night. It'll just be one with depth of field and no motion shake. Let's face it, low light available light photos look different than flash photography.

The real reason many zone system photographers preferred and did most of their serious work on B&W film was control. Drastic changes in development times (N+2,N+3 or N-2, N-3 etc) with color film and also what Adams called the reciprocity effect (reciprocity failure) which both can cause uncorrectable color shifts. Those changes in development times is the way you control the upper zones. With color film that was not an option so many of those zone system photographers, because of the lack of control, considered color a barbaric process.
 
I used for many years Fujichrome 50 as my standard everyday film, for 17mm-80mm lenses and the Fujichrome 100 as my "fast" film where I use a zoom lens.
 
The real reason many zone system photographers preferred and did most of their serious work on B&W film was control. Drastic changes in development times (N+2,N+3 or N-2, N-3 etc) with color film and also what Adams called the reciprocity effect (reciprocity failure) which both can cause uncorrectable color shifts. Those changes in development times is the way you control the upper zones. With color film that was not an option so many of those zone system photographers, because of the lack of control, considered color a barbaric process.

Well, we are talking about two different things.
 
Hi,

I wish you hadn't mentioned Agfa's CT18 (sobs)...

Regards, David

He knows what ORWO CHROME UT21 was better. 😀

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