MikeL
Go Fish
kevin m
Veteran
Your contempt for your fellow forum members is well-demonstrated, but this is a new low even for you.
I can afford an M8, but I won't buy one because it's a poor value for the money. A toy, in short, and not the reliable workhorse the M6TTL or M7 are. Wonderful image quality, but piss-poor interface and reliability.
By your silly 'logic' I guess my having used M bodies to make money counts for nothing since I haven't 'proved' my loyalty by purchasing an M8. I would think Leica would love to hear from working pros who used their film cameras, but don't own the M8, but what do I know. Evidently, the current management agrees with your POV that Leica is now a luxury toy and not a working tool.
And who, BTW, is calling for manufacture in China. That's a strawman of your own invention.
Last edited:
kevin m
Veteran
Third option: Quit living in a fantasy world. The Noctilux was affordable until recently, and they traded owners frequently. It's only the recent high prices that make them seem somehow more desirable. Like the New Yorkers say, fuggetaboutit!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
POINT OF VIEW
Established
Force the price down.
Force the price down.
Everybody that thinks the M8 is over priced, here is a solution that I’m sure you could live with. Have the German government take control of the Leica factory. Then they could force the company to sell the M8 and as for that mater, there entire line of lens at a price everybody could afford.
Force the price down.
Everybody that thinks the M8 is over priced, here is a solution that I’m sure you could live with. Have the German government take control of the Leica factory. Then they could force the company to sell the M8 and as for that mater, there entire line of lens at a price everybody could afford.
kevin m
Veteran
Like I said, Roger, your contempt for people who don't share your views is palpable.
pmu
Well-known
Let's take a quick look into the past (from the interwebs):
1997:
">Germany, used 1.0 Noctilux # 3.153.+++ (1981) ca $ 1.500 incl.
>hood.
>All us offers, given in this goup recently, are between $ 2.400 and
$2.800.
>Additionally, the International Price Guide (7th ed, June 1997, p 50)
says:
>1.0 Noctilux (separate hood) $ 1.500
>1.0 Noctilux (built in hood) $ 1.600
_____________
from the year 2000:
Noctilux for Sale - Respond via Private email only!
The lens is as new and its serial number is 368xxxx. It comes with the
leather case, white Leica 11822 box , factory paper work, Leitz front
and rear caps and Leica 13381 E60 UV filter. The price is $1,700 firm
and I am in the Los Angeles area.
_____________________________
From 2002:
- 35/2.0 summicron black, latest type before ASPH, mint, complete with lens caps, hood with extra cap, leather case and box, US$ 650 plus shipping - 50/1.0 noctilux latest type, mint, leather case and lens caps, no box, US$ 1650 plus shipping
____________________
There you go, it was below that $2500 not long ago. The Leica prices today are simply RIDICULOUS. I rest my case.
.
pmu
Well-known
Sorry if you found my previous post rude, that wasn't the intention, but I can certainly see why you reacted. Sorry.
As for your situation: That was exactly the position I was in when I decided to just get the friggin' M8. I had a dSLR, I had all the lenses, and the huge backpack to carry it around in. But I didn't like using it. The size and weight made me leave the camera at home when I should have been carrying it around. And then there was the question of lenses. Every time I wanted a new lens for the M6 I had to "justify" it, weighing it up against the dSLR stuff that I had. I love film and analog to bits, but at times it is a chore to develop the film, or send it off for developing. Then there was the scanning.
The M8 was a saviour. Suddenly I could sell all my dSLR stuff (that more than covered the cost), and I could use the same set of lenses on both analog and digital cameras. Sure, it is not a D3 og D700. To me that doesn't matter: I wouldn't carry it around if it was. Sure, I would love to see an M9 with D3 ISO quality, and I would save up for it and buy it.
In the mean time I'm stuck with the M8. And you know what? It ain't that bad.
If you truly believe that you would be "100 times more comfortable with the tool I was using because I just happen to prefer rf over slr" - then I can not see the reason why you shouldn't get it (if you can afford it). Check the value of your dSLR and do the math. Don't let yourself be stopped by others opinion of what the value of the M8 is, the quality, whatever. Try it.
Once again, sorry for coming off as rude, not my intention at all. Whatever you decide to do: Have fun!
I hear you! No worries, you were not rude
Sorry if I sound like rude... I see your point, happy that M8 works for you! But I have to wait for the M9... 
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
The one thing you neglect is that we are no longer in the year 2002, 2001, 1997 or even 2006 anymore.
As it has been said by others more insightful than myself; hindsight is 20/20.
I am referring to prices in the here and now. The Noctilux is no longer in production. Neither is the 75mm Summilux and look at what happened with prices there too. If you really think that Kobayashi-san can create that 50mm f1.0 lens and retail it for $2500 now (or in the near future), please don't hesitate to write to him or start a campaign to do so. There will be lots of folks ready to jump on board; including myself.
But until it appears, we are stuck with prices as they are now for an out-of-production rare lens.
Dave
pmu
Well-known
I am not talking about noctiluxes and those other rare out of production lenses. I am talking about the fact that EVERYTHING form Leica has gone through this comically high price increases.
One more example. the lens in currently on production and easily available if you want to buy one: 35mm m summilux asph
right now there are several 35/1.4's in ebay for about $3600.
Add from 2001: "For Sale Leica 35mm f1.4 Summilux ASPH. # 118xx ShutterBug Ex+ condition. Glass is perfect. One cosmetic flaw: where the lens is engraved "Summilux" there exists a bit of white paint about 1mm in diameter that apparently spilled over the "S" during manufacture. Black. Includes rear cap, shade, and box. Purchased new in 3/99. $ 1000"
Same goes with most if not all Leica lenses... Leica just decided to increase the prices and when you drum it long enough it becomes OK. Well, yes it is OK if the buyers decide so, but like I said I am not buying this at all. No way. Thank god there is Zeiss and CV.
Ben Z
Veteran
Yes, because the fall of '06 is when the M8 first appeared. Summer '08 is...now. The M8 has risen almost 15%, ten times more than Porsche and almost twenty times more than Mercedes...all in the same time frame, with identical currency issues at work.
I am not saying that those currency issues aren't legitimate, nor am I saying that Leica wasn't justified. I am simply saying that to the US consumer, in light of M-B, BMW and Porsche not passing the dollar devaluation through to their customers, puts Leica in an unfavorable light.
Last edited:
tomasis
Well-known
What's yours then? Look at your words yourself before you put this online. Let's get time to think about it. No hurry.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Fair enough.
We are talking now about annual Leica increases which, to you, seem to be out of control and ridiculous.
I cannot justify Leica's price increases.
I haven't a clue how Leica calculates, justifies or warrants these annual increases in lens and/or body prices.
Now, do I care?
Not really - the only item I've ever purchased brand new from Leica is the M8. Everything else I've purchased that is Leica branded has been used, second or even third/fourth/etc. hand.
Has Leica made any money off of me? Yes, when I bought the M8.
That's about the extent of my loyalty to Leica and, in return, Leica's "loyalty" or "appreciation" for me, a customer.
So, do I get upset at the fact that Leica's prices go up every year? Not really. Why get upset if I don't intend on buying anything else "brand new". Do some of the used prices go up due to the "new" price increases? Sure they do, but not to the point that it is "ridiculous" imho.
I can buy a brand new 35mm Summilux (as you quoted here) for $3999.00 CDN plus 13% taxes. $4518.00 CDN for a brand new, never been used, Summilux. If prices on ebay are currently $3600 ($4068 after local taxes) then I would rather buy brand new and save myself the headache. But that's me. Not everyone is like me and not everyone is like you.
So with all this in mind, why does it irk you so much that these price increases occur if you do not buy Leica, nor can afford Leica? I'm not saying that you're a "lower person" for not being able to but I am curious though because if you have no intent of purchasing a Leica lens/body brand new, why the concern in the first place?
Will you be just as angry and hurt if Zeiss and/or CV decide to increase their prices by the same percentage (I believe 14% was touted) as Leica did?
And I do not mean any of this as a slight against you or anyone but I am really curious about this.
Cheers,
Dave
Ray Nalley
Well-known
If I was saving my money for a lens that cost $2,000, but Leica is raising the price faster than I can save the additional money, that effects me directly and I would think I had the right to bitch about it, even though I'll now never be able to afford the lens.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
You absolutely have the "right" to bitch about anything and everything. It's a "free world" (as they say).
Does it change the price of said lens?
Nope
Will Leica hear your plea?
Maybe
I'm just saying that it doesn't really solve the problem you are experiencing at hand; it may make you feel a bit better, but it doesn't help the lens come into your price range any faster.
Cheers,
Dave
Ray Nalley
Well-known
There just seems to be this increasingly shrill chorus (not from you, Dave) that insists that if you don't own a specific camera, you have no right to an opinion or comment on it. It seems to be a hammer used to prevent negative comments about a camera even when they are justified. Kind of strange.
pmu
Well-known
I would buy Leica if the prices were in this world where I am living. If the prices were close to Zeiss I would choose Leica. The main reason why these price increases bug me is that the products remain the same, but the price goes up...high up, fast and furiously. Faster than lightning. It just does not make me feel wanting to buy anything from them. If they make M9 as a full frame it will propably be something like $10000. 6 months later you can upgrade it with pink leatherette and pink soft release for additional $700...or similiar..
I am still waiting if someone tells me the difference why Leicas prices are justified compared ro Zeiss in lenses.
Last edited:
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ray,
'Even when they are justified'
Yes, but what's 'justified'?
Comments based on no experience at all should surely be discounted to some degree, as against those who have tried the same product -- though I fully accept that those who have spent $10,000 on something may be trying to persuade themselves, at least as much as anyone else.
Likewise, my comments about $4500 Lobb boots are probably less relevant than those of someone who wears said boots.
And (let us not forget) the 'shrillness' is not all from one side.
Cheers,
R.
Last edited:
Ray Nalley
Well-known
One thing the shrillness from both sides has done is put Leica into a position where they need to knock one out of the park at Photokina. Can't wait to see what that is.
kevin m
Veteran
Well, that's been covered at length, but you choose to either denigrate the speaker or ignore the evidence.
The M8 is a wonderful camera for "personal use," which is evidently why more owners than not use it in that capacity. Lovely IQ, but quirky controls and hit or miss reliability.
All Leica needs to do is tweak it a bit and make it a fully fledged professional tool. That way we all win.