jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well said, Ben. These posts about the good old film days when Leica was a professional camera and not luxury run contrary to history. the first luxury 'Leica's ugly gold plated things with lizard and snakeskin leather were built in a series of 200 each - in 1929 and 1930... The "professional"M6 has the most special editions of all, dozens are known. The M8 and M9 can take a beating with the best of them. For instance Tina Manley's M8, the one that fell into a river without ill effects:
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kevin m
Veteran
No, they're fairly accurate. You're right, of course, Leica has always made special editions, but in the film days, they were both a luxury item AND a professional camera. I don't know at what point their dwindling use as the "go-to" (not "personal use") camera of professional photographers will reach statistical irrelevance, but I bet we're getting pretty close.
Tina got lucky. Anyone who doesn't believe it was luck should try and duplicate her results.
Look, it's a luxury item. What else can a $10,000 camera/lens combo used primarily for personal pleasure be? No harm in that. Enjoy it if you can afford it!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well,mine got soaked without aftereffects and all three bodies survived some solid knocks without complaint. I know of only one report of a camera dying through condensation,none through water ingress,and many surviving heavy use ( see the relvant threads on LUF.)One thing these cameras do not need is babying,like many users here seem to do. The main thing that can happen might be an RF knocked out of alignment - but that is a carry-over from those "indestructible" film M-s. So yes, I tried my luck and duplicated her results. Btw - how many M8 and M9 cameras did you break through heavy use?
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Ben Z
Veteran
It's always been irrelevant to me. I use (and have done so many years) a Leica because I find it the best compromise between size and capability as a travel camera, not because pros past or present use it. It would still fulfill my purpose if not a single pro in the world used it. I can't ever remember needing that kind of validation for my choices and decisions.
Seems to me that for anyone who doesn't make a living with it, any camera is a luxury item even if it costs $50, luxury meaning something you want, but don't need...self-convincing arguments and rationalizations nonwithstanding. Certainly, for me $10K worth of Canon or Nikon FF DSLR + pro-series lenses would be just as much a luxury item as an M9. What it has to do with how many pros use it, I fail to see I guess.
kevin m
Veteran
FWIW, I agree. I used film M's for years for that very reason. I just don't find the digital M's to be a good value. When M8's start selling for under $1,500 or so - sometime next April, I'm guessing - I might change my mind.
Again, I agree. The Canon 5D I use for my own pleasure is a luxury item, too, by any reasonable definition. It's the "self-convincing arguments and rationalizations" you mention that seem pointless, whether or not the speaker is shooting the kids and pets with a D3 or an M9. Just use it and be happy. And if one should hoist his personal rationalizations up the public flagpole, he shouldn't then be surprised if others don't salute.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ben,
Your observation is spot-on.
The thing is, I do earn a living with my cameras. And my word-processing programs, it's true, but the Leicas give me illustrations and all kinds of things to write about. Yes, I could use almost anything -- my D70, for example -- and earn a living, but I prefer to enjoy earning a living with the cameras I depend on, rather than fighting with them.
This is why I laugh at anyone who snivels that a Leica "isn't worth the money." The answer is easy: DON'T BUY ONE. If you want one and either can afford it for pure pleasure (the reason I started 40 years ago with second-hand Leica cameras and lenses) or can afford to put it on the business (where all the new and indeed used kit has gone for 30 years) -- well, not a hard choice in my book.
Of course if you are running a business and can't afford to put it on the business, ask yourself two questions. One is, "Am I in the right business?" and the other is "Why can't I afford to buy the kit I want?"
Cheers,
R.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Zlatko, what I am saying is that it's the slippery slope--everybody has a bright idea as to how to "improve" the M9, until ultimately it bears no resemblance to the original article.
Dust reduction yes, if we must, but as I said, then somebody comes up with another clever idea, and another. I've already seen suggestions for focus confirmation and image stabilization on the M, both of which seem superfluous--now do you see what I mean? At some point you're just not adding beneficial features--you're making a different kind of camera entirely.
If I'm being a Luddite, so be it. But if you want an M to still be an M, then at some point you'll have to leave well enough alone. Otherwise , you might as well buy another brand of camera...
And you're right, the M9 has the features you enumerated. But as opposed to your DSLR, it's still a pretty minimalist piece of equipment.
Dust reduction yes, if we must, but as I said, then somebody comes up with another clever idea, and another. I've already seen suggestions for focus confirmation and image stabilization on the M, both of which seem superfluous--now do you see what I mean? At some point you're just not adding beneficial features--you're making a different kind of camera entirely.
If I'm being a Luddite, so be it. But if you want an M to still be an M, then at some point you'll have to leave well enough alone. Otherwise , you might as well buy another brand of camera...
And you're right, the M9 has the features you enumerated. But as opposed to your DSLR, it's still a pretty minimalist piece of equipment.
Lord Fluff
Established
Speaking to a Leica representative today - he assured me that the M range are NOT a professional cameras (hence there is no pro care scheme unlike for the S2 which will be supported) whether or not pros chooses to use the M system. The attitude is - well, it's your choice.
And if you doubt people buy Leica for status - during this conversation I witnessed a guy who clearly knew nothing about photography deciding that he simply had to have an M9 and a Noctilux.
Sure, even Canon need amateurs to buy their pro cameras, I totally get that, but it was a shock to be told that the M9 is NOT a pro camera, regardless of what any of us might have thought.
And if you doubt people buy Leica for status - during this conversation I witnessed a guy who clearly knew nothing about photography deciding that he simply had to have an M9 and a Noctilux.
Sure, even Canon need amateurs to buy their pro cameras, I totally get that, but it was a shock to be told that the M9 is NOT a pro camera, regardless of what any of us might have thought.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I guess I'm a little puzzled over the status issue... This guy and his new gear; who would he be impressing, other than himself? I'd think friends and family - or a workshop instructor - would wait to be impressed by the snaps...
Lord Fluff
Established
Roger, I'm sorry but I feel I shouldn't say, since I wouldn't want to get him in trouble, as I felt he was being candid with me.
I may not have enough posts here for you to take me at my word, but I assure you I'm being honest here, and I have no anti-Leica agenda, quite the opposite. I'm a member of Canon's professional programme and was trying to establish whether, if I was to move towards an M9-based system, how I would fare for things such as a loan camera if my main camera were to be away for service. I have to say I was a bit shocked, and certainly very disappointed by the answer.
I may not have enough posts here for you to take me at my word, but I assure you I'm being honest here, and I have no anti-Leica agenda, quite the opposite. I'm a member of Canon's professional programme and was trying to establish whether, if I was to move towards an M9-based system, how I would fare for things such as a loan camera if my main camera were to be away for service. I have to say I was a bit shocked, and certainly very disappointed by the answer.
Lord Fluff
Established
Leica gear impresses some people - it's a high end brand. I know this from a recent month photographing in Nepal. My pro Canon camera was ignored, whereas several people wanted to chat about the M8, one of whom was toting a Canon 5DmkII and pro lens himself. At Aperture, London's only camera cafe you'll sometimes find a guy who proudly totes his black paint MP and Noctilux, with an air of someone out to impress.
The Leica brand has cachet, whether the users of this forum, most of whom consider their cameras to be, erm, cameras, realise it or not.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Fair enough; thanks. I will indeed take you at your word. In fact it was never your word I doubted: it was his, because some 'spokesmen' are a bit, shall we say, self-appointed, and don't always present the Party Line. I'm not too surprised about loaners, to be honest, as they're a fairly recent innovation in a Nikon-Canon press war, and of course represent a far tinier percentage of Nikon/Canon's turnover than loaners might for Leica. At a guess, too, given Leica prices, everyone might decide they're entitled.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Oh, sure. They impress a limited number of fellow photographers. Maybe even a majority of the serious ones: I don't know. But how many serious photographers are there? Serious enough, that is, to be interested in Leicas? And (still more to the point) how many people actually buy their Leicas just to impress other people? There must be some -- the fellow at the café, for example, assuming you're reading him right -- but I suspect they're pretty thin on the ground.
Most people buy Leicas to take pictures, but then, most of the people I've known who've run Rolls-Royces do so because they like quiet, comfortable motor-cars. To me, an empty status symbol is something like 'designer' clothes -- which probably impress far more people, because it's usually easier to impress the gullible.
Cheers,
R.
Lord Fluff
Established
Thanks Roger.
Suffice to say he's a Leica employee, within customer service. He's not an official spokesman, hence why i don't wish to embarrass him in any way.
Regards the loan system - to be honest I think anyone buying a camera as expensive as an M9 has every right to expect a loan camera if Leica are going to need six weeks to fix it, even if it's not like-for-like, whether they make a living with the camera or not. Leica could easily scoop up a load of user M8s for this purpose.
If I bought a new Porsche and it was going have to go back to Germany for six weeks, I'd certainly expect to be lent some sort of car while it was away. This isn't a pro programme, it's basic customer service.
Suffice to say he's a Leica employee, within customer service. He's not an official spokesman, hence why i don't wish to embarrass him in any way.
Regards the loan system - to be honest I think anyone buying a camera as expensive as an M9 has every right to expect a loan camera if Leica are going to need six weeks to fix it, even if it's not like-for-like, whether they make a living with the camera or not. Leica could easily scoop up a load of user M8s for this purpose.
If I bought a new Porsche and it was going have to go back to Germany for six weeks, I'd certainly expect to be lent some sort of car while it was away. This isn't a pro programme, it's basic customer service.
Lord Fluff
Established
Well, I guess we have no way of knowing. But I would guess that (in the UK at least) most educated / monied people would have heard the name Leica, and would associate it with expensiveness, in much the way that they would with a Rolex watch.
The very fact that it has a high price ticket attracts people - my guy in the posh shop that was casually playing with an M9 and Noctilux - I heard nothing in what he said that indicated he had any depth of interest in photography, but he did seem to like the idea of it being expensive and exclusive - I didn't get the impression he was a timewaster either.
But, as I say, we'll never know if people do buy Leicas for the purpose of impressing others, since most of those people won't be found on this forum, they'll just be sitting in nice cafes with their MP or M9 on the table.
kevin m
Veteran
If we're not kidding ourselves, it's the same with most any luxury good. People buy things like this because they confer a sense of status to the owner. It's a way of saying, Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste without having to sing in public.
Even if the camera is just a well-used M2, and not a brand-new M9, you're telling the world that you're a person who appreciates fine things even if you can't afford the latest and greatest.
The Bugatti name has been brought back from the dead to take advantage of the same effect. A combination of nostalgia, class-envy, status-seeking and an imagined better life of some sort is the foundation of many luxury purchases, I'd reckon.
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tlitody
Well-known
people will find all sorts of what seem like rational reasons for buying stuff when in reality the purchase is purely driven by want and can and not need.
For example, smokers will rationalise smoking. Rolls Royce owners may say they only bought it for its quietness but do you really believe that is the driving force (pun intended) behind the buying decision? Personally I don't and I rekon Roger must know an awful lot of Rolls Royce owners for his statement to have any validity. It's as rational smoking. You buy stuff, any stuff except food, out of pure want rather than need. That is why advertising is so effective. It is a purely psychological reponse driven out of conditioning. For most of us anyway, unless we actually engage our brains which is a rarity. And most of us, even those who like to think we have engaged our brains can rationalise anything to suit our wants rather than our needs.
For what its worth I don't think dust removal system is a necessity. Regular cleaning will suffice and you'll have to clean it anyway as you don't want your camera full of accumulated dust which is easily shaken up. Might be a nice to have though and it will save me lots of post dust removal except that I'm going to have to check the whole image anyway if doing a careful job which kind of kills that little rationalisation.
So why are you celebrating Christmas? If the answer is because you are a Christian then fair enough. Everyone else celebrating will give all sorts of reaons none of which have any validity except to suit themselves.
For example, smokers will rationalise smoking. Rolls Royce owners may say they only bought it for its quietness but do you really believe that is the driving force (pun intended) behind the buying decision? Personally I don't and I rekon Roger must know an awful lot of Rolls Royce owners for his statement to have any validity. It's as rational smoking. You buy stuff, any stuff except food, out of pure want rather than need. That is why advertising is so effective. It is a purely psychological reponse driven out of conditioning. For most of us anyway, unless we actually engage our brains which is a rarity. And most of us, even those who like to think we have engaged our brains can rationalise anything to suit our wants rather than our needs.
For what its worth I don't think dust removal system is a necessity. Regular cleaning will suffice and you'll have to clean it anyway as you don't want your camera full of accumulated dust which is easily shaken up. Might be a nice to have though and it will save me lots of post dust removal except that I'm going to have to check the whole image anyway if doing a careful job which kind of kills that little rationalisation.
So why are you celebrating Christmas? If the answer is because you are a Christian then fair enough. Everyone else celebrating will give all sorts of reaons none of which have any validity except to suit themselves.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Umm.. Leica offers a professional service for M cameras, has done so for years - if you are a professional that has bothered to register with them. Have a look at their website. I think the Leica representative was misunderstood in this case.
Professional service with Leica means 48-hour turnaround door to door - and a loaner if that target cannot be met.
tlitody
Well-known
From what I can find in their website it says nothing about a loaner and the service offered doesn't include warranty repairs. i.e. If it takes 6 weeks it takes 6 weeks and no come back.
Methinks there are different levels of service in different parts of the World.