M9 in 2010. Target price same as m8.2

[jaapv]

I did not say we are there yet - but we are approaching. 5 years, not yet I would say, but after that is getting into diminishing returns.

For instance your megapixel example. Yes - a 21 Mp image holds more information than a 10 Mp. But on the prints most used - say A4, the difference is not visible at all. The only advantage left is to facilitate cropping.

And lenses: The 280/4.0 Apo Telyt and Summilux 50 for instance are fully diffraction limited. That is the limit imposed by immutable optical laws. How are you going to improve on that? And those lenses can -just- resolve a 20 to 25 Mp sensor. What sense does it make to build a higher resolving one? You would do the same as those ridiculous 12 Mp cellphone cameras that produce 2 Mp-type images.

DR - I grant you that. There is still a lot to be gained . The present 11 is not bad at all, but I think the sensible limit there would be around 16 (?). This combines of course with noise performance - real noise performance, not the electronic one we see now -that does nothing for DR.

Image stabilisation - I don't know. I had a Canon 300L with the feature and I did not think it very practical. It was mostly the subject that had motion blur, not the lens.

And lightmeters - I don't think I need a bells and whistles one. A simple centreweighted one combined with with a knowledge of the theory suffices in a close to 100% correct metering in my experience. If the worst comes to the worst there is always an external meter in my bag.

 

[johannielscom]

Let's face the flaws of current sensors and lenses built into cameras like the M8 and future possibilities.... the "biological limit" is still far away:

- A 21 MP camera like a Canon 5D2 shows a LOT more details in an image than an M8.2 with the best APO lenses, simply because there is more in the image than a 10, 12 oder 16MP sensor can show. A digital medium format sensor shows even more.

- Beyond 1600 ISO things get nasty and noisy even with that Canon camera (not to speak of the results from an M8.2). This is not the last word, imagine to shoot handheld in a dark church, at f16 because you might need some DOF. I wouldn't mind being able to do that and get the same or better results as at 100 ISO today.

- All sensors available now have a maximum dynamic range of 10 f-stops or so. Reality has a lot more contrast and a "mild HDR" sensor that allows several more f-stops would allow a lot more "dynamic depth". That is important for post-processing and eliminates a lot of hassle with exposure, especially in a dark church with a lot of contrast.

- Did someone shout "the lenses must be able to keep up with that development"? Well, cheap consumer zooms will be sorted out and replaced with better lenses. Good news for Leica, even if nobody breeds with vultures.

- Today I own two Canon "L" lenses with image stabilization. This feature is great, I mean really, really great: looking through the finder you see a stable image, when you press the button you can take handheld images that would normally require a tripod. Some modern DSLRs (Sony alpha, for example) have the IS not in the lens but in the camera body. There is no reason to believe that Leica could not do that sooner or later. I hope they do, it's not only a wonderful feature for avaiable light photography.

- Talking about lightmeters... maybe, in the distant future, Leica will build a light meter into the cameras that is as sensitive and clever as the multi-zone-multi-pattern meters inside Canon and Nikon DSLRs. Plus simple center-weight or spot metering, of course.

So, I don't think that the "biological limit" will reached within the next 5-10 years even. There is enough work for an M9, M10, M11, M12...

Now you propose Leica should move out of their market niche, and howl in the woods with the rest of the pack!

Make up your mind, what's it going to be!?

• Shoot at f16 in any dark church with the M8: use a tripod.
• Detail on a 21MP sensor is for people who cannot shoot straight and need cropping to get a decent shot. Use your feet, frame and shoot.
• ...

There's more bolony talk in that post of yours, but it's useless, I don't feel like getting into it. And: you own a Canon, why try to shovel all it's features in a Leica M9 body? Shoot the DSLR, forget about using a rangefinder! Much easier!

 

[Tony Rose]

For ALL you dreamers, STOP!

The M9 is SOOOOOO far away and if not will never exist. Whoever came up with this illusion must have just come from the back of the Smoke shed.

You might hear some rumblings at the end of 2011. I will stake my reputation that the ASKING price will be at least $8000.00 if it is FULL frame version. It has been proven by ZEISS Germany that the current physical size of the M8.2 cannot cover a FULL frame 24/36cm Sensor as you would see in a camera such as the Canon 5D Mark II.

If you think Leica Germany is working smoothly, the S2 is proven fact there is trouble in the hen House.

 

[Harry Lime]

So, be careful what you wish for, building the perfect camera will stop people from ever buying anything again and will essentially be the death of the company.

Arri, the German maker of professional movie cameras has a similar problem. For decades (and to this day) there was a huge supply of fully functional, used cameras in the market that simply refused to wear out. Some of these cameras date back to pre WWII. You very likely would have to run over one of thesewith a tank to assure it's destruction.

Eventually Arri refused to service certain models, probably in a desperate attempt to hasten the demise of some of the older bodies in the market, but a network of independent repair shops keeps them running to this day...

 

[M like Leica M6]

Now you propose Leica should move out of their market niche, and howl in the woods with the rest of the pack!

No way. Did I ASK for 100 different auto exposure versions, 500 picture styles, video, a good microphone? I just PROGNOSED that progress will not stop and that the "digital film" inside the cameras will become better. And I said that some of the progress will be good for us.

Make up your mind, what's it going to be!?

• Shoot at f16 in any dark church with the M8: use a tripod.

• 
  
  Show me one Leica photographer who loves to carry a tripod. I don't. And even with a tripod you can't fetch moving objects. Look into a newspaper, sports section, and look for indoor sports: many photos have a lot of noise or a strobe was used to disturb the game. I wouldn't mind if the sensors became better and eliminate such problems.
  
  

  [*]Detail on a 21MP sensor is for people who cannot shoot straight and need cropping to get a decent shot. Use your feet, frame and shoot.
  [*]...

I am a follower of the old principle "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough." But I like VERY BIG PRINTS, as detailed and sharp as possible. I just wouldn't mind if 4x5" quality were possible with a handy, small camera. Would you?

There's more bolony talk in that post of yours, but it's useless, I don't feel like getting into it.

Is it really necessary to answer in such a disrespectful way? If you don't agree with what I say, why don't you just say that you disagree for some reasons?

And: you own a Canon, why try to shovel all it's features in a Leica M9 body? Shoot the DSLR, forget about using a rangefinder! Much easier!

I own four Canon cameras: 3, 1v, VT deluxe and 5D2.

What I would really like to have is an M6 with a digital sensor. I would be perfectly happy if I could just buy that. Probably I wouldn't have bought a 5D2.

But I must admit that the 5D2 also has some cool features and delivers great, detailed, sharp images. What I really HATE about Canon is all that custom function menus in EOS cameras, some of the useful things are hidden, like, for example, mirror lockup in my EOS 3:

- open the hatch at the right side
- press "CF" (the smallest button ever built into a camera, impossible to hit it with gloves)
- dial "12" with the wheel
- switch it to "1"

It's really that complicated, no kidding.

So, I really believe you misunderstood something, I really love my old black rangefinder camera as you can see in my name. But I am greedy to get her younger sister, but Leica has not decided when I can date her.

 

[johannielscom]

...Show me one Leica photographer who loves to carry a tripod. I don't. And even with a tripod you can't fetch moving objects...

But we weren't talking moving subjects, we were talking DOF in a dimly lit church.

I am a follower of the old principle "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough." But I like VERY BIG PRINTS, as detailed and sharp as possible. I just wouldn't mind if 4x5" quality were possible with a handy, small camera. Would you?

I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. Yes, it would be nice to have a single camera that can do it all. But it won't happen. It's like cars: you can't have a sleek sports car that handles perfectly off road and can cross rivers and mountain ridges. (one might like cars like a Porsche Cayenne and the Volvo beefed-up series, but they excell at no single purpose). With all the features people want to see in a future Leica, it will get as complicated as locking up a mirror in a Canon DSLR 🙂

Is it really necessary to answer in such a disrespectful way? If you don't agree with what I say, why don't you just say that you disagree for some reasons?

It's not, you're right, I apologize. It's just that I get worked up on the endless Leica-M8-bashing and fruitless Leica-M9-feature threads on RFF. I'll give staying away from M9 thread another try, I did quite well at that for some time...

To make a final statement: I would have less fun if my camera could handle everything without me thinking too much about it. Making plans, preparing, packing gear etc. is part of the fun for me. Isn't it?

In general, for all M9 thread-readers: Get to know your gear, find solutions to perceived shortcomings, photography is about using your own creativity, not some camera designers!

I'm outta here🙂

 

[M like Leica M6]

But we weren't talking moving subjects, we were talking DOF in a dimly lit church.

Dim light and church does not necessarily mean people don't move. Maybe in your church, but I saw other services and had to struggle with 1/4 sec. and people were dancing around.

I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. Yes, it would be nice to have a single camera that can do it all.

Still, I just want an M6 with a digital film that deliver great image quality. No mirror, no prism, no autofocus, no nonsense. I don't want a convertible with a Porsche engine that needs less fuel than a Smart Diesel. I want a simple thing making good, reasonable use of new technologies.

To make a final statement: I would have less fun if my camera could handle everything without me thinking too much about it. Making plans, preparing, packing gear etc. is part of the fun for me. Isn't it?

Sure. Mastering photography IS part of the fun. But sometimes fun means that you get home and have an image that is better because your camera could do things you couldn't do with an older camera.

In general, for all M9 thread-readers: Get to know your gear, find solutions to perceived shortcomings, photography is about using your own creativity, not some camera designers!

I'm outta here🙂

Good advice, but that will still be good advice when the M12 is available 😎

 

[rangerobot]

M9 late 2009?

M9 late 2009?

Someone at photo.net posted that the M9 will come later this year. He heard it from his local shop in Australia. Price US$8-9k.

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00T0Pb


P.S. Hi all... I've been lurking and researching on the M8 to make a decision for purchase. Thanks for such a great site.

 

[Steve Ash]

In general, for all M9 thread-readers: Get to know your gear, find solutions to perceived shortcomings, photography is about using your own creativity, not some camera designers!

I'm outta here🙂

I absolutely agree. These people seeking for more and more features of their gear do not realise that the next camera will never sacrifice their own limitations and lack of capabilities.

Regards
Steve

 

[downstairs]

I absolutely agree. These people seeking for more and more features of their gear do not realise that the next camera will never sacrifice their own limitations and lack of capabilities.
Regards
Steve

I'm capable and I would like an M9 with less features than the M8. Is there a features/capability co-relation? Will the marketing people get it wrong again?

 

[taxi38]

Nobody would want to see any manufacturer go under but the fact is that leica has been taking the mikey for years.How many would be paying the price of the 24mmf1.4 if the camera gave decent results at 1250asa,this is deliberate and unsubtle ,and yes I want one too...

 

[parsec1]

I bet on the M16 myself.Everything buit in. You just ask it nicely to 'nip out and get me a corker PLEASE' (remember they are German) and half an hour later a Pullizer prize winner will be on your Mac/PC. You won't even have to leave your armchair. Until then be prepared for the same old unsold rubbish with fancy engravings on the outside (A micky mouse edition would be my choice) at idiotic prices for wealthy individuals to buy until even they see the foolishness of it all. (Round about the 'Sound of Music' edition i reckon)

 

[parsec1]

To any electronics boffin out there please
,would it be possible to generate enough power from 'cranking' a silky smooth 'wind on lever' to work the camera thus removing the need for any batteries at all ?

 

[M like Leica M6]

To any electronics boffin out there please
,would it be possible to generate enough power from 'cranking' a silky smooth 'wind on lever' to work the camera thus removing the need for any batteries at all ?

Not with the current batteries. Not if you want to photograph - you would find yourself turning the crank for hours.

 

[M like Leica M6]

I bet on the M16 myself.Everything buit in. You just ask it nicely to 'nip out and get me a corker PLEASE' (remember they are German) and half an hour later a Pullizer prize winner will be on your Mac/PC. You won't even have to leave your armchair. Until then be prepared for the same old unsold rubbish with fancy engravings on the outside (A micky mouse edition would be my choice) at idiotic prices for wealthy individuals to buy until even they see the foolishness of it all. (Round about the 'Sound of Music' edition i reckon)

In the 80's, Minolta made a famous ad in Germany. They were so proud of all those automatic features of their XD-something SLR that their headline was "The only thing that's lacking is a motif bell". Well, as soon as a camera starts talking with me I will stop to photograph and write books instead.

 

[stratherb]

FF M9 or whatever not before 2011....
Herb

 

[robofc]

Full frame sensor and smaller, more detailed body like an MP3

Full frame sensor and smaller, more detailed body like an MP3

I prefer the balance between angle and bokeh of a fast 35mm lens. But with the cropped m8 sensor I have to shoot with a 24mm or 28mm to approximate a 35mm. And it is impossible to get good bokeh with either. The bigger the sensor the better the bokeh. And it is the bokeh which distinguishes Leicas from small sensor cameras. So give us a full frame sensor.

The M8 is thick, tall and bland. The control quality is inferior to the film cameras, as is the chrome. Compare an MP3 or MP to an M8. I would like the M9 to return to the quality level and size of the MP and have some additional styling elements like the MP3. For one thing, get rid of all the plastic on the back. The controls should be chromed or black painted brass instead of black plastic. The screen surround, and control wheel and buttons should all be metal and be chromed or painted.

It should also be offered a la carte so one can chose the viewfinder magnification, offer leather covering and choose engraving and dot options.

Lastly, the battery charger is still not compact enough. It needs to plug directly into the wall, without having to pack a tangle of cable. That way it could fit into a Leica size camera bag and not have to be packed in the suitcase.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

I'm convinced Leica is missing the boat, here. They should forget about designing their lenses for best performance of the in focus areas and design for best performance of the out of focus areas! 😉

Leica is never going to move very far forward if users insist they never, ever, ever, ever get away from the M3 body. In the digital world, it's an albatross around their neck.

 

[Al Kaplan]

I feel a lot safer in some neighborhoods with a traditional M body and my 85/2 chromed brass mounted Nikkor swinging on its strap from a couple of wraps around my wrist. People can sense by the way it swings to and fro that...well, they wouldn't want their temple to get in the way.

I wouldn't want to depend on a plastic digicam for that.

 

[abenner]

Al, I think the M8 could induce pain similar to a film M, but the difference would likely be the picture-taking ability of the camera afterward.