M9 in 2010. Target price same as m8.2

L39, will you be able to afford a roll of film to put in your Leica II in 10 years? As perplexing a problem as whether I can get battery for a Canon then.
 
batteries are easy

batteries are easy

You can make your own power supplies, and even charge them off of the grid.

What keeps me awake at night is if Costco stops developing and scanning C41.

L39UK said:
Most current camera manufacturers only keep spares available for a limited number of years, for example Canon can no longer supply circuit boards for the AE-1 cameras, and there are many other similar cases of spares no longer being available.
All currently manufactured goods have a built-in obsolescence factor, its a symptom of the modern "throw away"culture of society, and in particularly when electronic components are involved in the construction.

The question "will spares for my current digital camera be available in 10 years time" cannot be answered and more importantly if by chance they are,and only time will tell, will the Achilles Heel of all digital cameras the BATTERY still be available.I very much doubt that it will.
Without batteries to power them Digital cameras become just wastebin fodder.
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KM-25 said:
It had better not need an IR cut filter though, that is a deal killer for me.
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There are some more for me:

First, there is the crop factor. I have lenses in 21, 35, 50, 100 and 135mm, and I don't want to convert them into 28, 46, 66.5, 133 and 180mm.

Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter 😱 For comparison, have a look at photos from an M8.2 (let's say 100 ISO) and an EOS 5D Mark2 (let's say 1000 ISO) - it's like jumping from a 400 ASA 35mm film into medium format with a 100 ASA film. Canon must have made a trade: twice the MP, but at the expense of noise... significantly less than an M8.2, even at much higher ISO settings. 😎

To put it in a nutshell: Leica does not exploit its market niche. Many people will buy a digital Leica M if they can buy one with a better and bigger sensor. I am one of those potential customers. In fact, when the first rumours about the M8 were heard, I almost ordered one in advance, but when I heard the details I stopped thinking about it. That was 2 years ago, and they still use the sensor that was outdated in 2007.

We all know speed is not a home game for Leica. Recently I read that Leica's product cycle is synchronized with continental drift.

But if Leica wants to overcome the crisis, they just have to speed up and build a camera body that more customers would buy.
 
I feel sorry for Leica and would not want to be in their shoes. Enthusiasts want them to be innovative again, to regain the glory they enjoyed in the pre-slr days. To produce a digital camera that lives up to the Leica name. But it better look and feel like an M3, have only analog controls, use even 50 year old lenses without a crop factor, have a FF, low noise sensor and, oh yeah, how about an absolutely silent digital shutter that we cock with a conventianal advance lever and a reversable LCD so we won't be tempted to check a histogram while shooting.

I just don't believe we'll see a FF sensor in an M shaped body. Why spend that kind of R&D to stuff a FF sensor in an M when it would be better spent in other areas, and when Canon is selling a 21mp, FF, low noise, high ISO camera with video for $2,500 and can produce more of them in an hour than they can produce in a year and actually sell them.

Their market, as long as it exists, is primarily the boutique market for film cameras and Leica appears in the latest videos that have been posted to achknowledge that.
 
I was talking to a dealer here in Oz a month or two ago about a D-Lux 4 among other things. He asked if I could wait until the M9 was released and assured me that it was real and that he had information about it! It was full frame with a price of around AUD$15 000 (Leica M8.2 is around AUD$10 000). I have bought a bit of gear from these guys and they are well respected here in Oz. He had no reason to lead me up the garden path, in fact as I mentioned, I was looking at purchasing a D-Lux 4 at the time.
 
eleskin said:
Lets get real here!

$6.000 is alot of money to spend on a camera that will be outdone by something that appears two years later. $9000 for something like that is not possible to market to sell widely. Notice Canon and Nikon have different versions of the same camera at various prices. That is so they can make money on one platform. Leica cannot afford to sell this above $6,000. $7,000 would really hurt, but alot of people could swing it with some sacrifice. $9,000 and up would limit the camera to a few sales, and what would one do when at that price level, we are talking about medium format digital (Pentax is reviving their plans for a 645 Digital, and their lenses are cheap and very good, I have them, I know, some better than the Zeis they put on Hassys and Rolleis).

Basics to business and profit are good marketing and large volume of production with reduction of product price. No company is immune to these basic market facts, not even Leica. There comes a point where the business model fails, and if you price yourself out of a larger market, and you loose money, all you have to do is look in the mirror to see who is at fault. this is economics 101. Even Mercedes Benz knows better. They kept US prices lower even though the Euro was killing the dollar. Why? Because they knew there was a price level that they could sustain here that made sense. If it went up too much, you would turn away customers, even if they do have money. People who have money don't like to get ripped off either!
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I find it interesting that this was your response to Jaap's price estimate, as he was in fact referring to the only price 'information' that was on the forum site that you supposedly quoted in your thread title. The part about price being the same as the M8.2, I assume was just wishful thinking then?
Pretty much sums up all of these types of thread, really...
 
CameraQuest said:
Leica dealers are already very unhappy with poor 8.2 sales demand. This rumor will likely just about kill 8.2 sales. Leica has to stay alive and pay the bills long enough to make the M9.
Stephen
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M8 or M9, Leica needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market.

The simple fact is that the M8.2 is way overpriced for what it is and that is the main reason why it isn't selling. My dealer saw M8 sales nose dive after the last few price increases. The arrival of the D700 didn't help either.

Even of the M9 is fullframe Leica needs to figure out a way to lower prices or start offering a tiered product line. FF and 14-18MP would help to justify the cost, but it still is quite a stretch.
 
If they are only selling a couple of hundred cameras a month, they can't reduce their prices and stay in business. I'm not sure reducing the prices would actually increase sales in the RF market, anyway...not the price reduction it would actually take to sell a significant number of the cameras.
 
M like Leica M6 said:
...
Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter 😱 For comparison, have a look at photos from an M8.2 (let's say 100 ISO) and an EOS 5D Mark2 (let's say 1000 ISO) - it's like jumping from a 400 ASA 35mm film into medium format with a 100 ASA film. Canon must have made a trade: twice the MP, but at the expense of noise... significantly less than an M8.2, even at much higher ISO settings. 😎
...
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First, I don't have an M8, but I do have a 5D that I never use. Why? Simply put, I hate it. I hate the form factor. I hate the ergnomics. I hate the viewfinder (compared with a rangefinder). I hate the autofocus lenses. I hate the lenses too, they are too big! I hate the weight of the camera. And last, but not least, I hate the mirror slap.

I want an M8. I would prefer no-crop, and I'd prefer a better sensor. But I don't want an SLR, no matter how great the IQ. I want a rangefinder.
 
Harry Lime said:
M8 or M9, Leica needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market.

The simple fact is that the M8.2 is way overpriced for what it is and that is the main reason why it isn't selling. My dealer saw M8 sales nose dive after the last few price increases. The arrival of the D700 didn't help either.

Even of the M9 is fullframe Leica needs to figure out a way to lower prices or start offering a tiered product line. FF and 14-18MP would help to justify the cost, but it still is quite a stretch.
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Yes, Leica is vastly overpriced compared to all other DRFs.....🙄 If a customer can switch from an M8 to a DSLR in his buying decision just like that he would only have ended up in the M8 complaints threads.
 
dfoo, and yet you list one Leica and three slr's among your equipment. 🙂

Seriously, I've never much cared about the "form factor" of the equipment. I've never lost a photo because of the mirror slap. The holy grail of Leica lenses seem to be the Noctilux, a huge, heavy lens.

I own several Leicas which I enjoy using, and a bunch of Leica lenses. But I shoot mostly with an SLR. Different strokes.
 
Harry Lime said:
M8 or M9, Leica needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market.
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I think Dr. Kaufmann should send a delegation of Leica marketing execs to Switzerland to visit with their counterparts in the watchmaking industry. Somehow companies like Patek Philippe, Vacheron-Constantin, and Audemars-Piguet (to name just three) can sell a stainless-steel wristwatch for $12,000 that doesn't even have the date, has to be wound by hand, and at best is accurate to a few seconds a day vs a few seconds a month for any $10 quartz watch, and anybody would be laughed off a watch forum for suggesting that they are "overpriced for what they are" and the company "needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market". Those companies are hurting in this economy, but they're not going into panic mode and slashing prices or re-branding Casio G-Shocks. Leica is missing some strategic element in the marketing of their image.
 
Ben Z said:
I think Dr. Kaufmann should send a delegation of Leica marketing execs to Switzerland to visit with their counterparts in the watchmaking industry...
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Totally different market and product. The M8 is not an accessory or piece of jewelry, although a lot of people treat it as such. It is a tool.

Also any digital camera has an expiration date and at some point the market will see it as obsolete and therefore worthless. How much would you be willing to pay for a 5 year old PC or Mac?
 
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dfoo said:
First, I don't have an M8, but I do have a 5D that I never use. Why? Simply put, I hate it. I hate the form factor. I hate the ergnomics. I hate the viewfinder (compared with a rangefinder). I hate the autofocus lenses. I hate the lenses too, they are too big! I hate the weight of the camera. And last, but not least, I hate the mirror slap.
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I have both an M8 and a 5D. I agree 100% with you on most of the negatives of the 5D (or any SLR). I most definitely don't hate it though. The M8 has disadvantages of its own, such as the limited close-up and telephoto capability unless using a Visoflex (which basically makes it as clunky as the 5D), and the lack of a true zoom. All tools have their limits, plusses and minuses.
 
Ben Z said:
I think Dr. Kaufmann should send a delegation of Leica marketing execs to Switzerland to visit with their counterparts in the watchmaking industry. Somehow companies like Patek Philippe, Vacheron-Constantin, and Audemars-Piguet (to name just three) can sell a stainless-steel wristwatch for $12,000 that doesn't even have the date, has to be wound by hand, and at best is accurate to a few seconds a day vs a few seconds a month for any $10 quartz watch, and anybody would be laughed off a watch forum for suggesting that they are "overpriced for what they are" and the company "needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market". Those companies are hurting in this economy, but they're not going into panic mode and slashing prices or re-branding Casio G-Shocks. Leica is missing some strategic element in the marketing of their image.
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Strange comparison! These exclusive watches are fashion/success statements for the well heeled ... so you're happy for Leica to continue down this path obviously if it means financial viability?

I'd prefer to see them get into bed with an Asian manufacturer who can produce their cameras for them allowing an economically sound pricing structure based on selling it in profitable numbers at a reachable price for the average consumer ... and some technology based around the future and not the past!
 
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Pickett Wilson said:
Seriously, I've never much cared about the "form factor" of the equipment. I've never lost a photo because of the mirror slap. The holy grail of Leica lenses seem to be the Noctilux, a huge, heavy lens.
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But most likely you lost a lot of photos because of the "form factor" of your dslr when it stayed home.

Regards
Steve
 
M like Leica M6 said:
Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter 😱 For comparison, have a look at photos from an M8.2 (let's say 100 ISO) and an EOS 5D Mark2 (let's say 1000 ISO) - it's like jumping from a 400 ASA 35mm film into medium format with a 100 ASA film. Canon must have made a trade: twice the MP, but at the expense of noise... significantly less than an M8.2, even at much higher ISO settings. 😎

To put it in a nutshell: Leica does not exploit its market niche. Many people will buy a digital Leica M if they can buy one with a better and bigger sensor. I am one of those potential customers. .
Click to expand...

To put it in a nutshell from my point of view: This sensor you are complaining about is outperforming your film M already.

Regards
Steve
 
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