M9 or GRD?

[nightfly]

I know on the face of it, it's a ridiculous comparison but many of you shoot both so thought I might gain some insight.

I shoot an M4-P and a GR1 as my primary film cameras so am very familiar with both. I also own a GRD3.

The points in favor of the M9 are that the color images I've seen have a very compelling and unique Kodachrome sort of look. I don't like messing with a lot of post processing so that is appealing. Also when shooting with my film Leica I feel very engaged with the process. I like being to quickly glance at my shutter and aperture, pre-focus and shoot.

The GRDs main draw is portability. I know the GR1 and GRD3 well and I know I actually have them with me more. The Leica means a bag since I don't like straps. However when I have the Leica with me it means I'm out to shoot, it's not an afterthought. There is a certain intention.

The downside of the GRD is that as much as everyone loves the ergonomics of the GR series, it is still like fiddling with a computer. You have to remember all the buttons and setting etc. Looking down at the camera with it off tells you nothing. Also I did a professional job using the GRD3 during the winter and it feels a bit like a toy. It would seize up in the cold and turn itself off with the lens stuck out so you wouldn't know till you went to shoot and it wouldn't work and you'd have to cycle it off and on and loose the shot.

The output of the GRD3 is good but not entirely compelling. Not sure if the larger sensor of the GRD changes this to the point of being competitive with something like the M9.

Things like high ISO, low light sensitivity and sharpness don't mean much to me. I shoot fast and like a little blur and grain. I'm probably going to crush the blacks and generally dirty up my files a bit no matter what because I still like a film aesthetic. However, the color qualities matter to me and digital sensors do seem to produce different looks from camera to camera.

I hate the over sharp, brittle digital look. I want something that doesn't need too much post out of the camera. I'd use jpeg or raw whatever works. Ideally have some in camera settings that work like choosing a film type would be ideal but I could also create presets for post.

As is probably obvious I'm leaning toward a used M9 and don't mind making the investment since I have a 35mm Summicron and 28 CV 3.5. But I've seen some very compelling work here from people like David Manning and Andrea Taurisano with the GRD and people saying things like, they own an M9 and don't use it much anymore since getting a GRD so I wanted to give it adequate consideration.

 

[Richard G]

You will decide. I reckon it will be M9. I love my X100, but every day I'm out for my walk with the M9, sometimes the Monochrom. As close to walking out with a film M as I can get. PP very simple in Lightroom.

 

[kennylovrin]

I actually find this comparison quite interesting.. 😉

I quite recently purchased a GR and I have an M9 since before. From an image quality perspective the GR is really good. Perhaps the M9 is slightly sharper with my Zeiss Planar lens, but it's not an obvious difference.

I have considered selling off my M9 and just go with the GR because it is "just as good" (I've decided not to though). My main concern is that it is a 28mm equivalent lens on it, and I struggle with that, I just don't like it, the distortion in the edges of the frame really annoys me, but that isn't a GR problem, it is a 28mm problem - and it is just my taste. I prefer 50mm and 35mm if I want a bit wider.

What I can do for you right here and now is to share two very similar photos, shot within minutes of each other of the same subject. However, I know people love to complain about how utterly pointless comparisons are, so let me just make the following clear:

* I couldn't move closer, so the framing is different because my M9 had the 50mm Planar and the GR obviously had it's fixed lens.

* I messed up the exposure a bit on both shots, mainly on the GR shot as I let it meter as it pleased and all the white of couse made it underexpose - which I forgot to compensate for because I was freezing my testicles off. So: M9 +0.25 in post, GR +1 stop.

* As you mentioned using a GRD in cold, I think it was -15C this day, the GR worked without any hiccups at all, but I don't have huge experience with it in those conditions.

* Both shots have been post processed exactly the same (I have a preset consisting of a curve, some minor color adjustments, tiny desaturation and daylight whitebalance).

M9:

fullsize png

GR:

fullsize png

hope it helps somehow 😉

 

[hepcat]

I'm in the same camp as Richard. I've always been a believer that a file is a file is a file, bu the more I shoot with my M9P the less I like working with my m4/3rds and older 4/3ds files. My M8 files are nice too... but there's something about the look of the M9 files that I really like.

The big issue though is form factor and how important the RF/VF is to you. The immediacy of the coupled, coincident rangefinder/optical viewfinder makes or breaks the deal for me. I have an m4/3rds camera and it is convenient for some uses (live view and video) but it stays home 99% of the time because of the viewing system. My M8 used to come out and play a lot, and I find that I'm leaving it as a back up to the M9 more and more. I just like the look of M9 files better... some of that has to do with the larger sensor, and some of it with larger file size I'm sure, but whatever the reason, I really like the files that come out of the M9P. And having the 35mm system lenses cover the field of view they were designed for, and to give the appropriate depth of field (that we're used to with a 24x36mm film frame) at each stop is a big plus as well.

You'll have to decide what works best for you though.

 

[kennylovrin]

I want to add as well that I've been thinking lately about selling the GR, but not for pure image quality reasons, I just have a stronger bond with the M9, if that makes any sense. In short, it's just more fun to shoot with the M9 in my opinion.

BUT, I personally also prefer the files from the M9, but the difference is not $3000, or whatever it is nowadays. So versatility and handling should probably be the basis for the choice, not pure image quality.

 

[nightfly]

All very helpful. Thanks.

I do think it's a handling/use issue rather than pure image quality. There is a certain sense of engagement when using a Leica.

But then there is getting the shots which is, or should be, the important thing and if there is less barrier to actually bringing the GRD you are going to take more photos.

My personal feeling, though I haven't tested this rigorously, is that when I take the GR1 or GRD3 just to have a camera with me in a situation where I'm not primarily focused on shooting, is that I don't really get any shots that are compelling.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

A lot of shots may not be compelling but in a few years time you'll probably find them fascinating and a pleasant reminder of happy days, etc, etc...

Regards, David

PS I'm worried that you used the word "investment" earlier but I'll wish you luck.

 

[hepcat]

PS I'm worried that you used the word "investment" earlier but I'll wish you luck.

I second David's concern as well. Cameras (especially digital cameras) are depreciating asset consumables, not appreciable investments.

All very helpful. Thanks.

I do think it's a handling/use issue rather than pure image quality. There is a certain sense of engagement when using a Leica.

But then there is getting the shots which is, or should be, the important thing and if there is less barrier to actually bringing the GRD you are going to take more photos.

My personal feeling, though I haven't tested this rigorously, is that when I take the GR1 or GRD3 just to have a camera with me in a situation where I'm not primarily focused on shooting, is that I don't really get any shots that are compelling.

There is some validity in that perspective. My m4/3rds body goes out if I think there's a good chance that it may not come back. I bought it specifically to use while on my sailboat, for example... I won't mourn its loss too much should it ever happen, and it makes acceptable images; and great snapshots.

 

[cz23]

Nightfly, I assume you mean the Ricoh GR, right? I'm a former M8/M9 user who now shoots with the GR. IQ-wise, I don't think you can fault either. Both CCD sensors with similar signatures. And both offer what I feel is among the best BW output available. If forced to choose, I'd give the IQ edge to the GR. But I did not shoot my Ms with Leica lenses. I shoot the GR routinely at 1600, which I never did with the M9.

So the decision, as others have said, is more a matter of handling and features, and the two are almost too different to compare. They are simply different design concepts. The GR inspires a free, spontaneous shooting style, which is what I love about it. Then there's the DOF, which is valuable for some types of photography. And AF. And, of course, the price. The fact that the GR gives Leica-class lens performance for about $650 AND fits in your pocket is pretty amazing. Given the price difference, I'd suggest starting with the GR and see if it meets your needs.

The 28mm question is one only you can decide. I shot mainly 35/50 before getting the GR. But I've since grown to enjoy getting closer. Still, lately I've been wanting a 50 option and tried a few cameras. With the GR as my standard for BW, nothing I tried renders quite like it, until I recently gave the X Pro1 a try and bought one with the 35 1.4. I'm thrilled with this combination. It seems to me that if the M9 and GR got together and mated, their offspring might be an X Pro1.

Good luck with your decision.

John

 

[FrozenInTime]

You won't go wrong with either - they are quite complimentary.
I carry my GR everywhere - the M9/MM are add ons with the advantage of being a RF system camera with faster and longer lenses.
Frequently I grab the GR so as not to change the 50/75 lens on the M9.

But if you never use anything longer than 35mm, The GR is probably for you.
The GR is a big step up from the GRD-III as you move to a full quality output.

 

[nightfly]

Don't own anything longer than 35 for the Leica currently so wouldn't be missing that.

As far as investment I wasn't thinking of it in the sense of getting some sort of return. Digital is disposable or at the very least a terrible investment. I get that.

 

[rhl-oregon]

I can't address the m9 half of the equation for my rangefinder cams are film-based entities, but will add that the current GR is effectively a 21mm and 35mm, in addition to its standard fov, with a second pocket's-worth of viewfinders and the GH/GW3 accessory.

That's a lot of rf-friendly wide-angling for a tiny machine. I generally keep it on manual--index finger for aperture/thumb wheel for speed, spot-metered, other adjustments as the moment requires.

 

[Monochrom]

hi, these cams are so different...you can have both, they complement.

 

[nightfly]

Part of my desire here is to standardize on one camera. Want to focus more on shooting and editing, less on cameras and processing.

 

[benji77]

Hi Nightfly, my answer is based on images I have seen you work on with your GRD, they are awesome.

I'd say get at GR. If you dont like it, sell the GRD, then get the M9 😱. Either way, you still need a Ricoh 😎

 

[Lss]

I guess the question is then whether a specific fixed focal length works for you or not. It must be the case for you to have narrowed the choice down. Then it's a question of handling and viewing/framing.

 

[kennylovrin]

Part of my desire here is to standardize on one camera. Want to focus more on shooting and editing, less on cameras and processing.

That is exactly how I feel as well, and in my case the choice fell on the M9.

 

[nightfly]

Very kind of you to say. Thanks. I'm sure if I end up with the M9 I'll keep the GRD 3 around for travel and snapshots but do want to standardize on one for more serious work.

Hi Nightfly, my answer is based on images I have seen you work on with your GRD, they are awesome.

I'd say get at GR. If you dont like it, sell the GRD, then get the M9 😱. Either way, you still need a Ricoh 😎