m9 the working mans version?

[emraphoto]

here comes the gorillas

 

[swoop]

The day Leica builds a cheap M for the masses outside of Germany is the day they sell out and lose total respect. They tried that with the CL, and failed.

It's a totally different market than it was then. What if it was Leica selling the X100 at the same price. I have no reason to doubt the Leica version would out sell the Fuji. In fact all the attention the X100 is getting is because it's a cheap Leica-ish digital.

 

[leicashot]

It's a totally different market than it was then. What if it was Leica selling the X100 at the same price. I have no reason to doubt the Leica version would out sell the Fuji. In fact all the attention the X100 is getting is because it's a cheap Leica-ish digital.

Thats true, but it wouldn't get the attention of being a cheap Leica-ish digital if Leica wasn't priced and build the way it currently is and always has been.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Well anyway- thinking about how to weatherproof a Leica M. I handled an M8 that spent several years in a war zone, and was dropped inside an armored vehicle. The only component that malfunctioned was the dial- from sand/grit getting into it. The buttons on the back of the M8 are reasonably well secured, but that does seem to be an entry point based on what I saw. I'm thinking a "reduced" enclosure to fit over the buttons, dial, and LCD screen would be a reasonable add-on accessory for a Digital M. Kind of like the plastic case that fits over dials used in an underwater housing. Would not have to be as big, or pressurized. It would have to secure onto the M8, using a potting adhesive. Other entry points, eyepiece- I have not seen a problem, but that can be secured by a good technician.

I think the "add-on" to secure controls is a cheaper alternative than Leica developing a new control panel that gets rid of the buttons and dial. That could be done using a hardened touchpanel, such as the touchpads used on newer laptops. Using a flexible membrane touch panel would work if you made it easily replaceable. They wear out.

 

[JoeV]

How about a freezer-bag-sized plastic ziplock and a roll of gaffer's tape? Viola, instant all-weather enclosure.

~Joe

 

[ottluuk]

It's a totally different market than it was then. What if it was Leica selling the X100 at the same price. I have no reason to doubt the Leica version would out sell the Fuji. In fact all the attention the X100 is getting is because it's a cheap Leica-ish digital.

Well, Leica is selling their X1 fixed lens APS-C compact at around $2000, I think. Without the innovative hybrid viewfinder. No viewfinder at all, in fact. Things seem rather quiet around the X1 these days although I remember reading that it was actually selling pretty well.

Hm. Let's see.
1) Sigma makes an AF large-sensor compact. Everyone's excited... until they see that the AF is slow.
2) Leica makes a large-sensor compact, leaves out the rangefinder mechanism... everyone's excited... until the reviews say that AF is just so-so.
3) m4/3 and NEX appear. Even less people left to care about fixed-lens compacts
4) Fuji announces a fixed-lens compact, includes an optical viewfinder with a vaguely rangefinder-like overlaying display thingy - the Internet explodes.

 

[emraphoto]

well, the direction is what it is now.

i will say that i personally wasn't asking for cheaper. i understand the plethora of reasons why the camera cost what it does and i heartedly support a lot of them. i am thrilled that folks can make a good living building great machines. i am happy there are choices on the market.

so, have it folks.

 

[gavinlg]

Well anyway- thinking about how to weatherproof a Leica M. I handled an M8 that spent several years in a war zone, and was dropped inside an armored vehicle. The only component that malfunctioned was the dial- from sand/grit getting into it. The buttons on the back of the M8 are reasonably well secured, but that does seem to be an entry point based on what I saw. I'm thinking a "reduced" enclosure to fit over the buttons, dial, and LCD screen would be a reasonable add-on accessory for a Digital M. Kind of like the plastic case that fits over dials used in an underwater housing. Would not have to be as big, or pressurized. It would have to secure onto the M8, using a potting adhesive. Other entry points, eyepiece- I have not seen a problem, but that can be secured by a good technician.

Try finding a used m8 without scuffs and scratches on the soft lcd screen. Nikons and Canons - even the cheap ones - don't have that problem.

 

[monochromejrnl]

How about a freezer-bag-sized plastic ziplock and a roll of gaffer's tape? Viola, instant all-weather enclosure.

~Joe

worked well for me while I spent a few days in the Sahara... certainly not ideal but the cocoa powder fineness of the sand and common sandstorms will ensure that the sand manages to creep into every nook and cranny and I suspect even a D3s would succumb to it...

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Try finding a used m8 without scuffs and scratches on the soft lcd screen. Nikons and Canons - even the cheap ones - don't have that problem.

I use a hard plastic cover that goes over the screen of my D1. Same with the D1x. I use a cut-out plastic sheet with adhesive on the back for the M8 screen. Works on Nikki's DSi, works on the M8.

I've seen a Then Brand-New, 1-week old, Nikon D2x with a shattered Screen. The photographer set it up on a tripod at a wedding, and a guest knocked it over. $1700 repair. The M8 that I handled took a bigger drop onto a steel floor, worked fine afterwards. Very few cameras are bulletproof. The ones that are, they are expensive.

 

[Harry Lime]

You're right about there being pros using Ms out there, but
A) there aren't enough of them to make a proper service network viable
B) there are even fewer who would/could pay MORE for a sealed version. None of the lenses are weather-sealed anyway, so weather-sealing the camera wouldn't do much good. A "tougher" M9 would probably need to be heavier and bigger, but light weight and small size are some of the main advantages of RFs.

I don't think that sealing the M series would be a big deal and would not drive the price up significantly, if at all. I studied industrial design, so I have some idea of what this would entail. Leica have said that they simply carried the M8 shell over to the M9, with some minor modifications. So, who knows, maybe they will make a camera that is not aimed at the country club crowed with the M10.

As far as the lenses not being sealed, that's not the end of the world and actually a revenue opportunity for Leica.

First off they could offer a gasket upgrade for existing lenses to seal the connection between mount and lens. That would seal the main entry point between the lens and body, where all the electronics reside.

Then they could issue a new pro line of lenses that are sealed. Same optical formula as the 'civilian' models, but with gaskets.

Sealing the body is far more important than the lens. If you have significant quantities of water entering the camera from the lens, then that means that he cameras is submerged. No one is asking Leica to turn the M-series in to a Nikonos. It really only needs to be splash proof. You are far more likely to have water enter though the threaded shutter release and collar. Also the buttons and LCD screen are prime entry points. A gasket inside the baseplate could be added with little trouble.

So, it's not a big deal to seal the camera from a technical standpoint, if the will to do so is there.

Leica just had a huge quarter. So, for the moment they think they are geniuses and can do no wrong. They will probably continue to do well, because they really don't need a sealed M, so there is no reason for Leica to change course. If it's not broken, why fix it?

As far as PJ's and pro's go, Leica really doesn't give a hoot about them. It's a moot issue anyway given the current job market for pro shooters. The vast majority don't have the cash to buy two M9 bodies and 2 or 3 lenses. PJ's are barely able to put food on the table, so the M9 is pretty much out of the question, unless they are totally committed to the system and they have no need for zooms, long or macro lenses or sophisticated flash system. Besides, they prefer to wheel out Seal at a press event, rather than some scruffy looking PJ.

Leica is perfectly happy selling their gear, while basking on the glow of the countless professionals from days past, who made their reputation. But that was a very different company...

So, good luck with that sealed M10. For the moment I think it's prudent to carry a wash cloth in your bag on rainy days .

 

[gavinlg]

I use a hard plastic cover that goes over the screen of my D1. Same with the D1x. I use a cut-out plastic sheet with adhesive on the back for the M8 screen. Works on Nikki's DSi, works on the M8.

I've seen a Then Brand-New, 1-week old, Nikon D2x with a shattered Screen. The photographer set it up on a tripod at a wedding, and a guest knocked it over. $1700 repair. The M8 that I handled took a bigger drop onto a steel floor, worked fine afterwards. Very few cameras are bulletproof. The ones that are, they are expensive.

The screen on the m8 was undoubtably soft. That's why they offer the screen upgrde. I think it's the same story for the pre-d200 era nikons but I'm not 100% sure. The d3/1d/5d/d700 cameras don't need screen protection because the screens are extremely hard to mark. The current M9 uses the same screen material as the m8 - they didn't adopt the m8.2 sapphire material as standard.

 

[menos]

I don't think that sealing the M series would be a big deal and would not drive the price up significantly,

…

Leica is perfectly happy selling their gear, while basking on the glow of the countless professionals from days past, who made their reputation. But that was a very different company...

So, good luck with that sealed M10. For the moment I think it's prudent to carry a wash cloth in your bag on rainy days .

That is one very lucid sum up on all points.
As a person with a technical background, I fully agree, that sealing an M should be not a major undertaking with lenses being secondary.

When I use a Nikon D3 with 70-200 or 300mm during a weekend on the race track and encounter a wet race, I simply wrap a garbage bag around the lens, secure it with electricians tape and hold the camera display side up, to shield the weakest water entry points against the rain.
The Nikon D3 is pretty well sealed and the lenses I use should be too.
But, the major water in case of rain does ingress not into the lens or lens mount, as one is actually shielding the camera away from bad weather, than shooting - it's not like we are setting up the camera on a tripod in the rain.

I have more confidence in my M6 and M7 in the rain, than in my M8.2.
When there is really bad weather and I want/ must shoot, I take the D3, put a sealed lens and a filter for easy wiping on it and do not spend a thought on it.

A basic weather sealing of all buttons, external controls, connection between main body shells and top and baseplate should be rather simple.

 

[semilog]

One (mildly mischievous) definition of the "=" sign in mathematics is "may be confused with."

Menos makes an excellent point. Which would people rather have: a company making Leicas that don't quite correspond to their fantasies, or no new Leicas?

For most of us, these two possibilities are equivalent.

 

[back alley]

and on and on and on and on...

 

[atufte1@mac.com]

I think the M9 is just that, a working man's version...

All the other crap in titanium and ostrich leathers is not...

I have been working since 2006 with my 2 M8's in all types of environments and have done all the things my DSLR did in the past, (around 350.000 exposures, thus far, and all that with just one trip to Solms, my Canon's have seen far more "vacation" time in the CPS service stands)

I'm now on 40.000 exposures with my second M9, and do not see why this is not as professional tool as any DSLR, all this talk about weather sealing and so forth, remember all the PJ in the past with no weather sealed lenses also got the job done....( i have been working with my M8/9's for several weeks in Egypt, Sahara, no problems other than dust on the sensor, which i cleaned off in 5 minutes...)

So stop all this worrying and just use the equipment like any other Leica made, it work's perfect....

 

[skibeerr]

It's a totally different market than it was then. What if it was Leica selling the X100 at the same price. I have no reason to doubt the Leica version would out sell the Fuji. In fact all the attention the X100 is getting is because it's a cheap Leica-ish digital.

You must be right, people pay a premium for a rebranded Panasonic.

I like the x100's concept because it is so near a digital Hexar af, a camera which I adore.
The Fuji also resembles the Yashica, Konica, Canon, etc..... camera's of yore.

w

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Try finding a used m8 without scuffs and scratches on the soft lcd screen. Nikons and Canons - even the cheap ones - don't have that problem.

I found one: mine (the M8). My Canon 5D doesn't have any, but my 50D has a pretty nasty scratch on the right edge of the screen.

 

[skibeerr]

The solution for Leica.

keep on making beautiful expensive collector M's with those nice lenses and sell a cheaper, working man's DRF under another brand. This way you will not cannibalise into the M sales to afficionados but reach a public who has been reluctant to buy because of price.

It's the reverse of what Leica has been doing with Panasonic camera's.

@Leicashot, the CL was discontinued because it was eating into the M sales and Leica decided M was their core bussines. Not because the lack of success.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The solution for Leica.

keep on making beautiful expensive collector M's with those nice lenses and sell a cheaper, working man's DRF under another brand. This way you will not cannibalise into the M sales to afficionados but reach a public who has been reluctant to buy because of price.

It's the reverse of what Leica has been doing with Panasonic camera's.

@Leicashot, the CL was discontinued because it was eating into the M sales and Leica decided M was their core bussines. Not because the lack of success.

What about the people who buy an M9 because there is no other choice in digital RFs? I'm sure many would prefer to pay less, so it would undoubtedly cannibalize M sales.

Also, the view at Leica is that part of what keeps them in business is the perception of German quality. If they made M-type Leicas (or second-rate M-type Leicas with a different label) elsewhere, they believe it would enormously harm their image. This is direct from people at the factory. Argue with them if you like: I doubt you'll change their mind.

How are they going to make 'a cheaper, working man's DRF'? You're asking for a stronger, weather-sealed camera for less money. Yeah, right...

Finally, Leica sells cameras to use: the current 'cooking' (non-commemorative, not-trick) models, M7, MP and M9, are emphatically not 'beautiful expensive collector M's'. They're working cameras, as several people on this thread have attested. It's just that there are surprisingly many people who refuse to believe that anyone buys expensive cameras to use.

Cheers,

R.