my Leica Store Berlin experience - snobbism at its best

I think that this is the best post in the whole thread. :D :D thank you Roger.

Kim

Roger Hicks said:
What an odd thread: everyone blaming everyone else. How about the following summary:

1 Some people are arrogant arseholes. This can include both buyers and sellers.

2 We all have bad days and good days. This can again include both buyers and sellers.

3 We all make snap judgements, though some of us are smart enough to hold off for longer than others before deciding we're right (because sometimes we're wrong).

4 We'll sometimes put up with things that annoy us, in order to get something we want, especially if it's rare or a bargain: if an arsehole wants to sell me a IIId for $50, I'll led him be an arsehole for quite a long time.

5 If we can get something elsewhere, at a reasonable price, we won't put up with arseholes.

6 Some people are indeed pathologically mean and will travel miles and waste days to save trivial amounts of money, and some others will cut off their noses to spite their faces, despite the way that most people feel about (4) above.

Cheers,

Roger
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Words of wisdom Roger.

But. Nothing quite like a good old moan of an afternoon. Exorcises the bad feelings (1) can endear.
 
Charles Bogel said:
Maybe they ARE better than you, and don't want to deal with the hoi-polloi.

If you were Albert Einstein or Oppenheimer, would you want to deal with idiotic physics questions from neophytes or ignoramuses all day?

Like I said, some people sell for pleasure. They want the mental stimulation of dealing with people who mentally challenge them and the type of people they want to interact with.

If that doesn't include YOU (in the broad sense of the word), there's nothing worse than an embittered, befuddled dork who feels rejected.
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Well, if that doesn't open a can of works. Or tapeworms.

I understand your statement. The main difference here is, Einstein and Oppenheimer had nothing to sell. And they both got a big (to put it kindly) snobby "talk to the hand" from the U.S. government at some point.

A brick-and-mortar shop is about being social. Which is why many have disappeared. The Me Culture is a tough nut to crack.
 
noci said:
Well, today I went to check out some used lenses I saw online @ the leica-camera-berlin store..

When I enter the store, the salesperson barely looks up from his screen and murmurs a subdued welcome, one eyebrow raised in that "now what could you possibly want here" look on his face.
I proceed to ask him about two lenses, which he denies to have in stock.
I tell him "in fact you have two of them", which turns out to be the case.
He beckons me to the back of the store, where he begins to jerkily unlock one of the display cases. I point to a lens - he picks it up and briefly mentions something about its qualities, then quickly puts it back without even asking me to take a look at it or taking off the back cap so I can check it out. Another lens - a 50 summicron - turns out to be a collapsible instead of a fixed version, which I point out might damage my - *gasp* - BESSA. at that moment he gets really talkative proclaiming he can't help me with any of that. I am at that point utterly frustrated, say my "goodbye" and leave that damn store.
seems I did not correspond to the posh "shopping-at-leica" stereotype or whatever qualifies one to buy a lens there. guess I'll take my business elsewhere & thank you very much, Mr. Leica-Berlin-don't-need-no-customers-like-you.
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Sounds like your making up a story. Too much stereotypes for me.
 
sorry, I haven't read all of this old thread. but there is some heavy one-sidedness going on here, as it seems. "Don't worry, this is just the usual way Berliners behave..." might be going a bit too far. Now, I'm born in Berlin, and I live in Berlin (I've also lived in Paris for some time apart from that), and I can tell there's a big bunch of rude *******s around and way too much. BUT there's just as many nice, friendly and obliging people living here and also working in all kinds of shops n stores.
I've been working in a professional photographers store myself, I had some incredibly likeable and cool colleagues and some suckers, jerks, really. the former prevailed. I was disgustingly underpaid though, thus I'm no longer working there.
and I've also been to the Leica store (about three times) here and I can totally tell an absolutely opposed story to what happened to noci.
in fact, the first time I walked in there, it was with a zorki 1d and jupiter-8 mounted in hands and the leica guy was very interested in taking a look at it although it was not what I was there for. so after that I asked him about the costs of a little CLA for my M4 and he explained to me that the CLAs made by leica in solms were pretty expensive because they take the whole camera apart and replace whatever could be going bad in the future so they can give a 1 (or 2?) year warranty for the whole camera and not just single parts. then he advised me, as I said that I probably wouldn't be able to afford that in the near future, to send it to some independent camera technician in hannover or just try to adjust it myself for now (which I did and everything's working just fine :D).
the second time I was there, I spoke to another bloke about soft releases which they didn't have, but he offered me a copy of the LFI-magazine for free with a little article about soft releases (in which they actually called Tom "Jim" Abrahamsson, don't ask me why, I should write a little mail to their editiorial department some time soon :D I bought Luigi's softie though, I'm sorry Tom! you should get some substitute over here in old europe!)

now I can't really agree on all the fuss about how rude and sniffy and ignorant all of us Berliners are, maybe noci had some bad luck and stumbled across the wrong employee there.
as I said, I've been living in Paris and I hatelove that city just as I hatelove Berlin. but if I had to choose for either Berlin or Paris I'd say Berlin and loud and I don't say that because I'm oh-so-proud to be born or live here. jerks are jerks all over the planet, no matter if it's shop-employee-jerks, waiter-jerks, bus-driver-jerks or whatever-jerks. and they're friggin' everywhere, more in some places, less in others, but Berlin is definitely not such a stronghold of theirs as some could think, regarding this thread. they're still to many here, I agree.

sorry for tearing this out of the drawer...

oh and yes, thanks for your statement, roger.
 
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Maybe try to talk to Andreas Meenken, he's incredibly nice and patient. I'm 20, too, and they treat me nicely. I'm technically from Berlin though, and I probably did talk like a local (I try not to).

martin
 
I find that there is a certain percentage of jerks in every profession and everywhere. It is best to ignore them as the alternative is to inflict bodily harm on them and get arrested (throwing shoes maybe!).
Leica centered stores tend to be a bit snobby, but they usually respond to the sound of credit cards being tapped on the counter! There was a time when you could go to one of these, ask for a selection of lenses and shoot samples with each and every lens and then "cherry" pick the one you liked. No more as their inventory cost is too high and the old "demo" lenses are virtually extinct these days.
If the rude salesman is an employee - ask to see the manager and complain. It is in the stores best interest to have employees that are working for them - not losing business by being ignorant or plain stupid.
I have no compassion for someone who behaves like that in a service function. If they are having a crappy day - it is up to the store to deal with it - not the customer! If a person lack "people skills" - they should not be behind a counter and selling in the first place. Yes. it is tough to maintain a straight face when the "fondlers" and "tire kickers" waste your time - but it is part of the deal of being a salesperson.
Both Paris and Berlin can be a bit 'snobbish" at times - but, in spite of that, they are booth among my favorite places in the world - and they are big enough to provide alternatives when it comes to shopping for stuff.
 
I had a very similar experience in Morocco at high-end fez store. I was called an "upstart" by the Fez "Consultant" (that's what they called themselves, mind you) there! Why the noive of that guy!
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I gave it a shot yesterday, dressed up like a hobo (something like that ) and walked in there listening to some rap music on my way oversized headphones. I asked for a Summilux, the Noctilux seemed a little over the top. Those guys are the stereopical Berlin inhabitants, somewhat distant and cool I'd say. But he did give show me the Summlilux, the 21mm Elmarit (3 different ones) got me a M camera band and showed me all the bags they have.

martin
 
Snobbery bashing, isn't it great?

We all have experiences like that I think. When I first wanted to buy an apartment, the guy I spoke to first about mortgages was totally uninterested. I knew nothing about buying a house or mortgages, that's why I was there! At the end of our little talk he finally had a look at my paycheck. Then the lights came on and he started doing his damn job. Too late dude.

Someone from the company he worked for actually called me the next week and started to ask me questions about how I felt about their service. I cut him short by saying I had found a bank that was friendly and cooperative, so very much unlike his colleague.

It's the same with posh camera stores and car dealers. If they are rude but suddenly realize I know more about the stuff they sell than they do and can actually afford it, it is usually too late. It happens, and it shouldn't.
 
During my three years in Augsburg with the military I dealt with Foto Bachschmid, run by two brothers. They were courteous and helpful. They sold me my first M3 and some lenses on a time payment plan that accounted for my pitiful private's pay. I really owe them a lot for getting me started and advising me correctly.

As I understand it, they are no longer in business. After fifty years that sometimes happens.
 
I just picked up on this thread and I remember long ago going into Stephens in the Manchester Arcade. At the time I was using Canon but wanted to investigate Leica R's. I instantly felt uncomfortable and felt that I was being humoured by the guys in there and the coffee drinking hangers on. I asked a few questions but just felt uncomfortable and felt that they would rather be gear fondling and chatting than trying to help me out. I remember it well as I was going to buy an R4s with a 50mm summicron. I ended up buying Nikon instead! I never went back. Maybe they where having a bad day, who knows? but I do know that it tainted my view of that particular seller. As I said, that was a long time ago and it's probably different now.
In contrast to the above, I've had great experiences with Kamera express and foto henny in the Nederlands where I live now. Always helpfull, let you try stuff out and consequently I'm happy to spend my hard earned with them.
I really don't have the time for rude people and if I feel like i'm getting attitude whether it be in a bar, restaurant, camera shop etc then I just vote with my feet.
The worst experiences of this kind have been in Porsche dealers but that's another story..........
 
Find em everywhere..

Place = Geneva, a very famous watch shop near the geneva clock on the grass.

my wife goes into the shop to buy a brand watch.. I have been on the grass
opposite the store near the lake taking pics. my shorts are crumpled, my
white baggy T-shirt is dirty with some mud and grass wipings. I am wearing
beach sandals.

my wife is wearing dungerees and beach sandals too.

she starts looking around waiting for the saleman to help. he is busy with polishing the catalogue. glances up and meets my glare. Yes! he says.
Yes what I say. want a watch? no, i say, i am on holiday..but my wife
does i say. we have some japanese and reasonably priced watches upstairs he says. help my wife i say. wait he says, my collegue shall
be here soon. wife looks inside a cabinet, asks this a**hole to see the watch. it is an expensive watch he says and gets back to his polishing.

i ask for the manager..he points into the next corridor. i find this guy with a waistcoat watch looking like greeves!

your salesman across is unhelpful, could you help my wife select
2 watches..brand xxx.

i give him my amex and my passport, and ask him to deliver the watches
to a certain hotel we are staying in. Greeves jumps, almost shouts at the
saleman. cabinet is opened, chairs are brought forward, coffee is offered
with a menu of swiss chocolates. a lady materialises from nowhere. bends forward on this velvet cushion to unstarp the watch for my wife. my eyes wander deep into the clevage.

my wife buys 2 watches..oui madame, but of course madam., would
monsier like a shoe shine!

i sign the bill and ask who shall deliver the watches to the hotel. they have a delivery dept. no herr manager, i want the f****ing salesman to deliver them. if not the deal is off. but sir..look herr Greeves, that guy would be a failure as a pimp let alone a watch salesman.

we walked out, eating the swiss candy. my wife did buy a watch from there, but of course she had the hotel chauffer her to the shop!

Herr Greeves still sends us greeting cards and catalogues.
 
Uncle Bill said:
I think there is a certain amount of, "you don't look like you belong to the club."

I have found Toronto though considered a "cold city" by Canadian standards is positively warm compared to what I am reading about Berlin. I have never had any trouble with local camera shops. I think the only execption is an establishment I won't name that decided not to sell film anymore (even though they stocked vintage cameras including some Leicas)
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The only problem with Toronto camera stores is that there are fewer and fewer of them. 'Back in the day' there was Toronto Camera, Queen Street Camera, Kominek (don't know if Russ is still in business?), ALT, Broadway Camera and the pawn shops actually had some decent stuff (there was actually a camera store on Yonge St. north of King St. many years ago that was a combination florist and camera shop!). I was in an unnamed store at the corner of Queen and Church a few weeks ago, and they had a black dial IIIf (which they had labeled as 'Leica M') with a Summitar lens, and they wanted over $ 550.00 for it, which seemed a bit out of whack to me. No wonder people are buying things on the Internet!
 
Vince Lupo said:
I was in an unnamed store at the corner of Queen and Church a few weeks ago, and they had a black dial IIIf (which they had labeled as 'Leica M') with a Summitar lens, and they wanted over $ 550.00 for it, which seemed a bit out of whack to me. No wonder people are buying things on the Internet!
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That's less than $400 U.S. Doesn't sound like a bad price if it's in nice shape. Especially if the shop stands by it with a guarantee. Also, maybe they were willing to bargain...
 
nobbylon said:
I've had great experiences with Kamera express and foto henny in the Nederlands where I live now. Always helpfull, let you try stuff out and consequently I'm happy to spend my hard earned with them.

The worst experiences of this kind have been in Porsche dealers but that's another story..........
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When I was just starting with photography I found the people at Kamera Express rude, patronizing and generally unhelpful. Maybe I looked too much like a student back then. In the past 10 years I have spent a lot of money on photography. But guess what, I didn't buy my gear from them.

As for Porsches... I guess I could walk into a showroom, but will never be able to afford one :D
 
I think I have to take up the cudgels for the local Leica shop in Frankfurt. I have confess that I hate snobbism over all. But I was quite surprised by this shop, which has a very extravagant appearance. At first the salesman gave me a stern look, but at the end I got the opportunity to test some lenses with my Bessa.

I told him I was very unsatified with the Nokton 35 1.4 and he told me of the experiences from a friend, who also owned that lens, but immediately sent it back two days later. From his own experiences, the salesman was very impressed by a VC tele lens. I made some test shots with the Hexanon 50 2.0 and the Nokton 50 1.5, no problem at all. He also made me a very good offer for a Hexar RF set, what I unfortunatley denied.
 
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ruben said:
But employees at photo stores, like at any other branch of anything, are not employed by their employers according to their knowledge on the matter, but according to their skill to sell.
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I have to disagree a little bit with that. Having worked in a photo store myself (LL Lozeau in Montréal), I can tell you that they care about your level of knowledge.

Before I got the job there (lasted only one summer, found something else afterwards), I had to pass a knowledge test that took me at least two hours to finish. I've had easier interviews for jobs that paid more.

I ended up being categorized as a "senior", which is their highest category for newly hired clerks. I won't disclose the salary, but let's just say that by being senior, I was just above minimal wage.

So I just have to take exception to the "all photo stores" categorization. Photo stores which hire people without technical knowledge, or at least without the ability to either learn fast or humbly ask their peers, are shooting themselves in the foot.
 
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