New Leica MPs and M-As difficult to find??

[loquax ludens]

I don't believe that MP's are still made, M-A's, yes.

Was there a discontinuation notice from Leica about the MP that I missed?

Seems odd that they would discontinue the more functional camera of the two, especially since the difference in price between them is so small. As far as I know, the only difference between the MP and the M-A is the light meter on the MP.

(Note: I'm not saying that the MP, which I consider more functional by virtue of having a light meter that the M-A lacks, is better or more desirable than the M-A. Which one is "better" is entirely a matter of personal preference.)

 

[splitimageview]

The problem with that, beside any moral aspects, is that the value stated on shipping documents also is the base for any insurance case should the camera get lost or damaged on the way.

Then I'd rather find a camera in a country that I know has a VAT more or less like the Norwegian one, and cuts it off when a camera is shipped abroad. All EU countries cut off a 19-20% VAT if goods leave EU. But I see no black M-A in stock at online Leica stores.

This is not a problem, just use third party insurance, it's much cheaper than shipper insurance anyway.

 

[james.liam]

Was there a discontinuation notice from Leica about the MP that I missed?

You didn't miss anything since they've never made such an announcement.

 

[jarski]

if there isn't any great urgency (op mentioned he has a backup), why not just get into line and wait for turn?

am quite sure Leica has calculated manufacturing to match the demand, and follow up. wait times are long because not many are willing to spend that kind of money for this type of item.

 

[scautez]

Hi,
I'm not sure if this will help you, but I am in Australia and this website has a new MA available, ready to ship:
https://www.digidirect.com.au/leica-m-a-typ-127-film-camera-black

 

[Archlich]

I read that Leica confirms their commitment to film cameras and cannot keep up with demand for film cameras. But this hardly rhymes with them only producing new film cameras once a year.

Any thoughts?

My take on Leica's diplomatic language:

"commited to film cameras" = they won't discontinue all of them;
"can't keep up with demand" = they're not making a lot of them.

None means the film camera business is booming and ramping up production to make big money is high on their priority list.

Anyway, If you're in for a camera of the lifetime, 2 months wouldn't be that unbearable a wait I assume?

 

[Fjäll]

I've seen the occasional used M-A on eBay from European retailers (once every 6 months or so). They typically go for around €2,600.

 

[ktmrider]

ClassicConnection.com in Connecticut have both MA's and MP's listed in both silver and black. Sam Shoshan is a great dealer. There is no sales tax on the US end and his price for an MA is $5195 US dollars.

His email is Sam@ClassicConnection.com and telephone 203-371-2352. I have been doing business with him for a long time and had never had any complaints. In Sept I purchased a beautiful 3f with 50 Summicron and last month a mint M4 50th anniversary body in black chrome.

I know he sells internationally and perhaps a third party insurance. I think I would call him.

 

[Andrea Taurisano]

As some have suggested, I may of course just place an order and wait. However I'd prefer to do so knowing when the camera is actually expected to arrive. They say it should be produced in March, but can't even say whether that's the case and can't commit to any delivery date, not even month. That's why I try to see if I can get hold of one in store somewhere without paying more for that.

As for the Leica MP: it's indeed a more "complete" camera, having a meter. But I just don't like the black paint finish. I just want to stop buying and selling cameras giving each of of them a chance to prove they can be my ultimate camera, and I also want to stop accumulating stuff. I want to achieve both goals by having nothing but the one camera that best satisfies my taste. A meter is practical, sure. But if I have to choose between a metered camera and one with the more appealing look and tactile feel of black chrome finish, with no unnecessary logos tattooed on the top plate, then the latter is my choice.

In fact, among the stuff I just sold, was also a mint M6TTL. That was very close to, but still not quite THE ultimate camera for me. Still too many plastic parts, slightly flimsy crancks, logos and texts.

A selftimer-less M2 could be even a little notch closer to perfection, because the framelines too are more minimalistic there, only showing 35mm or 50mm with no unnecessry "noise". But once I get a very good sample of it, have it fully CLA'd and repainted black chrome by a trustable workshop, it takes almost more money and time than getting a M-A.

 

[Erik van Straten]

A selftimer-less M2 could be even a little notch closer to perfection, because the framelines too are more minimalistic there, only showing 35mm or 50mm with no unnecessry "noise". But once I get a very good sample of it, have it fully CLA'd and repainted black chrome by a trustable workshop, it takes almost more money and time than getting a M-A.

Some time ago black chrome M-A's were available, but the more recent ones I've seen are all silver chrome.


Erik.

 

[Out to Lunch]

The Leica Berlin Store advertises a new black-chrome M-A at Euro 4,400 but is asking potential buyers to confirm a delivery date. They sell the MP silver-chrome for Euro 4,500 and is in stock. The black lacquered MP goes for the same price but you'll have to confirm a delivery date. When I lived in Europe, I bought from this store and they were great. Cheers, OtL

 

[Ramersdorfer]

I just looked on ebay.de. There is a black Leica M-A on offer from Foto-Goerlitz for 4400 Euros, apparently including 19% VAT. So I guess you would have the 19% knocked off on shipping. Maybe worth checking out.
I have no connection with the seller and have never bought from them.

 

[Andrea Taurisano]

I just looked on ebay.de. There is a black Leica M-A on offer from Foto-Goerlitz for 4400 Euros, apparently including 19% VAT. So I guess you would have the 19% knocked off on shipping. Maybe worth checking out.
I have no connection with the seller and have never bought from them.

We're in touch, thanks. The black, though barely used, is previously owned, so the full advertised price is what it costs, even for export. He has also a new silver chrome, which I could buy with no VAT for 3900 euros. But he may be receiving a new black M-A this coming week, which I also could buy for 3900 euros, and that is my best hope so far.

 

[james.liam]

B&H ( and all US store ) prices are before any local sales tax ... i.e. export won't get any reduction

That's not completely the case. If it's shipped out of country, they will not collect any. It's the buyer who needs to deal with it at their end.

I've shipped a lot of high-end gear to Norway, for a new M body I'd take it out of the box and ship just the body and nothing else, repackaged in generic packaging, marking the value low ("film camera")

Then mail the box and paperwork separately.

B&H won't do this, of course, but if you have a buddy in the US, this is how to do it.

Bear in mind the US buyer must pay sales tax for their location, unless they sign up for the B&H card. A few states have no sales tax, just need a buddy in one of those locations. 🙂

The problem with that, beside any moral aspects, is that the value stated on shipping documents also is the base for any insurance case should the camera get lost or damaged on the way.

Then I'd rather find a camera in a country that I know has a VAT more or less like the Norwegian one, and cuts it off when a camera is shipped abroad. All EU countries cut off a 19-20% VAT if goods leave EU. But I see no black M-A in stock at online Leica stores.

'Moral' considerations as they apply to our interactions with other people are paramount. Taxes hardly rise to that level; there are legal ramifications and workarounds that are not illegal, are consequently not immoral. Otherwise, the accounting and legal departments of every major corporation would be behind bars.

 

[mthomas]

Hi folks

I recently sold most of my gear and saved for my ultimate "one body & one lens" setup. Now, the dream body - staying within the camera topic - happens to be a nearly-impossible-to-get Leica MP in black chrome (it would have to be a la carte) or an ordinary M-A, black chrome. I'm not writing this to discuss my choice.

Both MPs and M-As seem to be out of stock anywhere I can see in Europe. The official Norwegian Leica importer just told me that Leica nowadays is only making these cameras once a year, and next time should be in March.

I don't see why they wouldn't get me a camera if they could, so I want to believe them. But it sounds strange to me.

I read that Leica confirms their commitment to film cameras and cannot keep up with demand for film cameras. But this hardly rhymes with them only producing new film cameras once a year.

Any thoughts?

And yes, I would gladly get a used one, if it wasn't that adding 25% VAT on import would make it more expensive than a new one..

I checked out the Leica dealer here in the US (in.Miami, Florida) and their website indicates they have a new M-A black chrome body in stock for $5,195 USD.

Marc

"https://leicastoremiami.com/collections/leica-m-system-m-system-camera"

 

[Andrea Taurisano]

Thanks guys. I am aware that some stores in the US have M-As in stock. I also have been in touch with customer service at B&H about buying one from them. However, it appears that the advertised price, 5.195 US$, is what I'd have to pay. There seems to be no chance to get any significant American VAT discount, even if the camera is shipping overseas. I have no idea what American rules and customs allow when it comes to e-sales to buyers elsewhere in the world. That's why I can only speak based on what the stores in the US tell me. And they are telling me "no VAT reductions or discounts", exactly as forumer FrozenInTime pointed out above.

EU is a different story. Anything sold in EU countries for export out of the EU, should be sold without charging the 19 - 24% domestic VAT that is normally a part of the advertised price for private buyers. The reason for that is VAT is to be paid upon import to the destination country (to Norway, in this case, +25% VAT). That gives a staggering price difference of over 1.300$ between a new Leica bought from the US and one bought from any EU country.

 

[Doug]

Thanks guys. I am aware that some stores in the US have M-As in stock. I also have been in touch with customer service at B&H about buying one from them. However, it appears that the advertised price, 5.195 US$, is what I'd have to pay. There seems to be no chance to get any significant American VAT discount, even if the camera is shipping overseas. I have no idea what American rules and customs allow when it comes to e-sales to buyers elsewhere in the world. That's why I can only speak based on what the stores in the US tell me. And they are telling me "no VAT reductions or discounts", exactly as forumer FrozenInTime pointed out above.

EU is a different story. Anything sold in EU countries for export out of the EU, should be sold without charging the 19 - 24% domestic VAT that is normally a part of the advertised price for private buyers. The reason for that is VAT is to be paid upon import to the destination country (to Norway, in this case, +25% VAT). That gives a staggering price difference of over 1.300$ between a new Leica bought from the US and one bought from any EU country.

There may be some miscommunication here... There is no American VAT. Any VAT you're subject to would be from your home country, not the seller's, as in the EU. US prices are quoted excluding any local sales tax, and no tax is charged on international sales. So the vendor is Right in not offering any discounts on VAT that they don't charge. Or any discounts or rebates for VAT that your home country charges. You will pay only the advertised (or negotiated) price plus shipping... then deal with your local customs/VAT when it arrives in your hands.

Within the US, some states have no sales tax, but most do, for local sales within the state. For sales between states, buyers have long been supposed to report the sale to their own state and pay the tax, but this has historically not been enforced. An increasing number of them now see the possibility of more revenue and have started to require the out-of-state vendor to charge the buyer sales tax and remit it to the buyer's state. But that's not your concern! Good luck shopping. 🙂

 

[Erik van Straten]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Leica-M-A-T...lm-Camera-Black-10370-BRAND-NEW/265016110691?


A new M-A in black for EUR 4000.


Erik.

 

[Andrea Taurisano]

There may be some miscommunication here... There is no American VAT. Any VAT you're subject to would be from your home country, not the seller's, as in the EU. US prices are quoted excluding any local sales tax, and no tax is charged on international sales. So the vendor is Right in not offering any discounts on VAT that they don't charge. Or any discounts or rebates for VAT that your home country charges. You will pay only the advertised (or negotiated) price plus shipping... then deal with your local customs/VAT when it arrives in your hands.

Within the US, some states have no sales tax, but most do, for local sales within the state. For sales between states, buyers have long been supposed to report the sale to their own state and pay the tax, but this has historically not been enforced. An increasing number of them now see the possibility of more revenue and have started to require the out-of-state vendor to charge the buyer sales tax and remit it to the buyer's state. But that's not your concern! Good luck shopping. 🙂

Thanks for a very clear explanation. Actually that confirms what I have been gradually understanding through this search.

A little part of what you write, however, deserves a comment: "Any VAT you're subject to would be from your home country, not the seller's, as in the EU"

Yes, in legal terms it's totally true. And that is exactly what I am trying to do (by asking sellers to not charge me VAT). But the fact is that advertised prices in pretty much any european countries (EU and not), if you check them out or "add to cart" as a privat buyer, are generally displayed incl. VAT from the seller's country. Foreign buyers are indeed entitled to NOT paying that VAT, exactly as you say, because one has to pay VAT to his own country. But in most cases we need to specifically ask to not pay that VAT. If I just click on "buy it" on a Dutch or German Leica store and go to checkout, VAT of the seller's country IS indeed charged. And if the seller registers the sale as an export, that VAT goes presumably stright into his pocket.

The price of a Leica M-A in EU countries is, "as we speak", 4.400 Euros (about 5.300 US$), incl. a 19 - 20% VAT from seller's country. In Norway, where VAT is 25%, the price is even a bit higher.

 

[Hilmersen]

Just got my MP, ordered it last march - and it is dated december. A danish guy in the leica film group on fb got one made in november. The good thing, is that I got it for 10% less than what it costs today.