New Sigma Quattro DP2?

[GaryLH]

The crop is about 40% on the width side, and is only performed on the in-cam jpeg image.

For scenes without movement or on low wind days, stitching DP2 or DP3 images will give better results, but the DP1 Quattro in 21:9 mode will have the edge in convenience and on scenes with a lot of movement.

It would not be hard to add aspect ratio info to the raw file that can be used by spp during post processing of the raw.

The biggest issue w/ stitching is scenes w/ any type of movement like waves, an object whether bird, person, ship, etc moving thru more one frame of the multi stitch.

Gary

 

[FA Limited]

Anyway, just my speculations. I want to c some real world samples. I plan to pre-order the dp2q anyway.. Keep my Merrill's as well. But color accuracy is not an issue if u are shooting in monochrome which I do a lot.

i find colour accuracy and sigma foveon to be somewhat of a misnomer as i found it extremely difficult to get "accurate" colours with the sigma. note that accurate is not the same as nice. if sigma had accurate colours there wouldn't really be a "foveon" look.

Ps. I am actually more concerned about how well I am going to get along w/ that grip.

the more i look at it, the more i wondering how i would have to contort my hand to hold the camera. from first looks it does not look like it is ergonomically sound. i don't think anyone would have minded a more NEX-type of grip.

Does anyone know if the lens formula was also redone? Maybe bigger lens is a better optimization for the sensor.

would be nice to get some confirmation on this one as it's super unusual they have gone for the 58 thread... given that the DPxM were 49/49/52.

 

[CliveC]

Interesting design, but it essentially means that it's roughly 25% thicker than more traditionally designed cameras.

 

[fireblade]

looks like we are going to get 60mp files.

"Newly developed Quattro sensor is definitely genealogy X3 Foveon technology. "Foveon Look" common to the camera so far remains. This innovation is 20MPx3 = would be 60 MP picture quality 1:01:04 are to be realized by the structure."

https://twitter.com/KazutoYamaki/status/432783028624949248

 

[GaryLH]

FA limited

People w/ better color vision then myself have said that the dp3m is the closest.

But I do believe that at base iso, the color accuracy should be better than the Bayer sensor cameras so long as the white balance is correct. There are times I think the white balance accuracy was the big issue here.

Gary

 

[Samouraï]

Does anyone know if the lens formula was also redone? Maybe bigger lens is a better optimization for the sensor.

Gary

Take a look at where the focal planes lie in both cameras. Lens looks the same size to me (if the comparison is accurate, threads to focal plane is equidistant in preview.app). Is the larger diameter indicative of anything other than equal threading for all three cameras and extra space for an IR lamp?

 

[noimmunity]

This is a cut and paste from getdpi forum from Hulyss Bowman.. This is his response in the thread opened by biglous. He makes some good points and I wonder if he is a beta tester given the way his comments are structured.

Gary

------------------------------- cut and paste from getdpi ---------------------

"Will review it against DP2m and DP2x. Stay tuned in the next months, this beast will pop out a bit before summer.

Point is the major problems of the current foveon technology is fixed with this new chip.

- The files weight less.

- The processing time in camera is far quicker, New chip AND new sensor. It is designed to be quick and efficient.

- Battery autonomy.

- New SPP.

- 14 bits raw vs 12 bit.

- Better dynamic range, by far.

It is still a foveon chip, extremely optimized. The 4.5 mp RED and GREEN layers are what SIGMA thought would be essential for color capturing.

And for the design, you'll get used to it.

Now, this architecture might be very interesting because it merge speed and foveon advantages. It is probably now possible to go full frame."

I read some marketing-speak in there (no offense to Hulyss, whom I admire).

Still sounds to me like Sigma decided it was necessary to make some adjustments to garner greater market share. Some people will call the adjustments advances, some (probably a minority) will call 'em compromises.

I couldn't care less about color accuracy. I never got it with Velvia. What I want are pleasing colors, and the Merrills deliver that in *****s under the conditions I shoot in. I'd rather keep that formula. The only improvement I need would be greater consistency of results (no green and magenta in skyscapes).

 

[FA Limited]

People w/ better color vision then myself have said that the dp3m is the closest.

But I do believe that at base iso, the color accuracy should be better than the Bayer sensor cameras so long as the white balance is correct. There are times I think the white balance accuracy was the big issue here.

reminds me of a comparison someone did where the DP3M for whatever reason had the best colours in natural mode. there's also a comparison of the white balance done by vieri.
http://madshutter.blogspot.ca/2013/03/the-sigma-dp-merrils-and-their-colors.html

yes better AWB would help or at least a more friendly colour wheel in SPP but i had a tough time getting the right colours everytime from the camera/SPP.

 

[GaryLH]

I just notice the LOW raw setting is 4.9 million photo sites. All blue color channels map to the green and red channels I would assume w/ a least amount of interpretation. My guess is that the average value of the 4 blue channels is used.

The medium size raw has been removed.. People have mentioned that the lower resolution raw files sometimes exhibited jags due to down sizing interpretation. Looks like this will not be an issue any longer.

One of the things I have really loved about the older dp series cameras is that there is a creamy look to the monochrome files that I have always had a hard time recreating in the Merrill's. I wonder if the low size will give me that same creamy look?

Gary

 

[FrozenInTime]

Some are saying the top 20Mpixel layer is really an unfiltered layer - so this strange camera should stand up well against the M Monochrom when it comes to sensitivity and resolution.

 

[GaryLH]

The foveon sensor cameras never had an aa or Bayer filter in front, only a uv and ir filter.

The top layer is always the blue channel at each filter site. The green and red channels receive the light after the channel above has filtered out its color. But because each layer gets attenuated light strength, it needs more signal amplification. The bottom layer where red channel is needs the most.

From the perspective of seeing the full spectrum of light after the uv and ir filter has done its job, yes the blue channel is unfiltered (sort of).

Gary

 

[GaryLH]

If this new approach really works well, think of what they could do with full frame..

If the dp2q has
- better af
- good color at iso 3200, monochrome up to at least 6400 w/o playing the blue channel game
- no real issues w/ overall iq in real life shooting situations
This could become my default vacation camera as well.

Gary

 

[Samouraï]

If this new approach really works well, think of what they could do with full frame..

If the dp2q has
- better af
- good color at iso 3200, monochrome up to at least 6400 w/o playing the blue channel game
- no real issues w/ overall iq in real life shooting situations
This could become my default vacation camera as well.

Gary

It seems to me that the monochrome mode could very well be an isolated top layer (as it is already a 100% luminance layer). It's a very pale blue, almost plain white? Then proper coloured filters would be required. But I doubt that'll be the case

 

[GaryLH]

I wonder if there is a new patent that explains this better.

Gary

 

[Samouraï]

You're right, I hadn't thought about how easily this Quattro architecture might be able to be transposed upon a full frame sensor without the kinds of throughput issues a proper X3 sensor might invite.

 

[GaryLH]

Yep.. No mention of sd1 update. If this is their flagship camera, then it should have been pre-announced. Either sd line is going end of life or the flagship gets much better sensor, hopefully ff.

Come on u beta tester post your reviews !!!!! 😀. Let's c what reality is.

Gary

 

[dfatty]

I wonder if there is a new patent that explains this better.

Gary

here's some light reading for you, gary 😀

https://www.google.com/patents/US7339216

i honestly don't know if this is related, but at first blush it sounds it. i haven't read it carefully though. nor do i plan to. 😛

ETA: sure sounds like quattro (this is as much as i'm going to read 🙂):

"In shared sensor embodiments of the inventive array, at least one VCF sensor group includes a sensor (in a low layer) whose carrier-collection element is shared with at least one other VCF sensor group. In a class of shared sensor embodiments, the inventive array is read out as a “1-1-4” array, the size of each sensor in each low layer (e.g., each green and red sensor) is equal (or substantially equal) to four times the size of each top sensor. In preferred implementations in this class in which each top sensor is a blue sensor, full resolution readout of the blue (top) layer and lower resolution readout of green and red layers can generate luminance information having the same spatial frequency for incident blue light and incident green light, although the blue channel's spectral response is less ideal (farther from a theoretically ideal luminance spectral sensitivity curve) than is the green channel's spectral response, because the full resolution blue layer of each such implementation responds to green and red light as well as blue light. These implementations of the invention can adequately capture high resolution luminance information, while their full resolution readout of the top (blue) layer and lower resolution readout of the other (green and red) layers also provides advantages (e.g., compactness, noise improvement, and reduction in the number of contacts that must be provided to sensors in the green and red layers) that cannot be realized by full resolution readout of the intermediate (green) layer of a “1-4-1” array and lower resolution readout of the blue and red layers of the “1-4-1” array."
* * *
"It is expected that the inventive array can be implemented to provide a better signal-to-noise ratio in both luma and chroma than can conventional arrays of VCF sensor groups. It is also expected that color-shading (color shift with incident angle) can be improved by implementing arrays of VCF sensor groups in accordance with the invention, since it is easier to optically shield vertical contacts at the corners of sets (e.g., cells) of VCF sensor groups (where the sensor groups of each such set share sensors) than at other locations within each such set (and all or most of the required vertical contacts can be implemented in such corners)."

 

[GaryLH]

Thanks dfatty.

Interesting this is a 2008 patent update referencing the original one. They discuss both a 4-1-1 design based on green as well as blue being the top most layer.

The interesting figure is fig 8 where some different aspect come into play.
- green and red circuits appear to be built up on the same silicon substrate
- blue circuits appear to be built off different substrate.
- blue channel sensors are much smaller then expected. The combined area is 4 blue sensors appear to be much smaller then expected.
However, all of the above could be exaggeration to make a point of what is really going on.

Gary

 

[Frank Petronio]

Where is this confirmed as an actual product?

These look like mock-ups to me, a teaser like putting gull-wing doors on a Ford Pinto. I half expect a Helium balloon sack to deploy to assist with gripping the thing.

If they ship I'd love to let you guys figure them out and if they're any good maybe I'll buy your depreciated one?

 

[dfatty]

Where is this confirmed as an actual product?

These look like mock-ups to me, a teaser like putting gull-wing doors on a Ford Pinto. I half expect a Helium balloon sack to deploy to assist with gripping the thing.

If they ship I'd love to let you guys figure them out and if they're any good maybe I'll buy your depreciated one?

lol, it was rumor yesterday, today it seems like sigma has confirmed it, though no hard date on release:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/article/sigma-dp-quattro