SuitePhoto
Established
The last few years I've been in school and had zero time to shoot my first RF (Bessa R) and develop film. Now that I'm done with school, I regret selling the Bessa and I'm looking for a new RF. While the Bessa was nice, I have always wanted a Lecia, so now I'm starting the hunt.
After going through all of the classic camera profiles on the CameraQuest site, and watching prices on ebay, I've narrowed-down my choices to a mint M4-P or M4-2 - or possibly a user M6 if the price is right.
But I have some questions on the M4-P/2's - how much cheaper (build/reliability/feel) are they really?? Compared to an M6/M7? Are there any issues with repair or lack of spare parts?? (When compared to the M6)
Also – are there any other places I should be watching besides the classifieds here and Photo.net, and then ebay?? If you know of any good shops in the California Bay Area/Monterey Area that have a decent selection of used RF gear, I’m all ears.
Thanks,
After going through all of the classic camera profiles on the CameraQuest site, and watching prices on ebay, I've narrowed-down my choices to a mint M4-P or M4-2 - or possibly a user M6 if the price is right.
But I have some questions on the M4-P/2's - how much cheaper (build/reliability/feel) are they really?? Compared to an M6/M7? Are there any issues with repair or lack of spare parts?? (When compared to the M6)
Also – are there any other places I should be watching besides the classifieds here and Photo.net, and then ebay?? If you know of any good shops in the California Bay Area/Monterey Area that have a decent selection of used RF gear, I’m all ears.
Thanks,
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I've had my M4-2 since 1980. Still going strong.
taxi38
Taxi Driver
Ive had my m4 2 since 82 without a problem.I also have a m6 ,I prefer the m4 2.
JRG
Well-known
"the M4-P/2's - how much cheaper (build/reliability/feel) are they really?? Compared to an M6/M7? "
I'd say the build quality of the M4-P is definitely better than that of the M6. Wasn't persistent criticism of build quality one of the things that prompted the MP? Here's a quote from CameraQuest on the subject: Real world, the MP has proven very popular, perhaps the result of pent up demand for higher quality mechanical fit and finish.
The earlier M4-P had a brass top plate, later examplars did not. So if you go that route, you might prefer an earlier one.
I'd say the build quality of the M4-P is definitely better than that of the M6. Wasn't persistent criticism of build quality one of the things that prompted the MP? Here's a quote from CameraQuest on the subject: Real world, the MP has proven very popular, perhaps the result of pent up demand for higher quality mechanical fit and finish.
The earlier M4-P had a brass top plate, later examplars did not. So if you go that route, you might prefer an earlier one.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
I've owned both an M4-P and my current M6. I can't say I've ever noticed a difference in quality between the two.
To be honest, I consider the M4-2, M4-P and M6 to be the same camera with different framelines between the two M4s and the added meter in the M6. Yes, there are other differences but I consider them to be minor.
Mike, does your shooting style work best with an internal or external meter?
For used gear, keep an eye on keh.com.
To be honest, I consider the M4-2, M4-P and M6 to be the same camera with different framelines between the two M4s and the added meter in the M6. Yes, there are other differences but I consider them to be minor.
Mike, does your shooting style work best with an internal or external meter?
For used gear, keep an eye on keh.com.
grainhound
Well-known
If you haven't already read the head bartender's very helpful take on M mount cameras, it's here: http://cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
I bought an M4-2 because it tends to be cheaper than an M4-P, I have a 25mm rather than a 28mm lens, and it's most unlikely I'll ever get a 75mm lens. I like having only the frame lines I'll use. Some on RFF don't like the M4-2 because of supposed quality issues, but mine has been great; I like it as much as my M2. To me it seems quite smooth; others disagree. The very early ones did have some problems, so do some reading on which (early) serial numbers to avoid. If you want to use a 28mm lens, you should check out the M4-P, which is apparently an M6 without the meter.
I bought an M4-2 because it tends to be cheaper than an M4-P, I have a 25mm rather than a 28mm lens, and it's most unlikely I'll ever get a 75mm lens. I like having only the frame lines I'll use. Some on RFF don't like the M4-2 because of supposed quality issues, but mine has been great; I like it as much as my M2. To me it seems quite smooth; others disagree. The very early ones did have some problems, so do some reading on which (early) serial numbers to avoid. If you want to use a 28mm lens, you should check out the M4-P, which is apparently an M6 without the meter.
VictorM.
Well-known
I've had an M4-2 for a few years and have not experienced any problems. I seem to remember the frame lines on my long-gone M2 as better but who knows.
SuitePhoto
Established
Thanks guys!
Having an internal meter would be nice - but not totally necessary. I'd probably just buy one of the VC II meters from Camera Quest.
So it sounds like a later M4-2 or M4-P is the way to go - unless I decide that I can't live without an internal meter...
Yeah, reading that gave me the impression that the M4-P/2 had a cheaper build than the M6 - but I must have mis-read... I guess he ment that the M4-P/2 was a cheaper build than the M2/3/4 - but the prototype for later M cameras, save the MP.
Having an internal meter would be nice - but not totally necessary. I'd probably just buy one of the VC II meters from Camera Quest.
So it sounds like a later M4-2 or M4-P is the way to go - unless I decide that I can't live without an internal meter...
dof
Fiat Lux
Mike,
I can't comment on the M4's but as for shops, you're in luck - CameraWest in Monterey has one of the largest selections of used Leica gear on the west coast.
All the best with your search,
-J.
I can't comment on the M4's but as for shops, you're in luck - CameraWest in Monterey has one of the largest selections of used Leica gear on the west coast.
All the best with your search,
-J.
George S.
How many is enough?
I've owned a couple of M4-Ps and they were/are very solidly built camera bodies. They're just an M6 without a meter- same frame lines, etc. I also own an M6 and very recently an M4-2. There may be a slightly noticable difference to you between the bodies, the M4-2 _may_ be not quite as silky-smooth as other bodies due to a difference in the parts chosen by Leica to use in that body, the point was to make it a bit more affordable. You'd probably need to handle those cameras all side-by-side to feel any difference, and even if there was a difference, it would be small, and nothing at all bad.
If I were in your shoes, I'd just wait right here at RFF for something nice to come by in the classifieds, maybe post a "WTB" ad. It's so much safer to buy here than anywhere else on the 'net.
If I were in your shoes, I'd just wait right here at RFF for something nice to come by in the classifieds, maybe post a "WTB" ad. It's so much safer to buy here than anywhere else on the 'net.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
On the whole, I would agree.
One could argue all day long about build quality between models. But in the real world we are all just splitting hairs with differences in materials (brass topcover on the M4-P and zinc alloy on the M6, for example). Any M camera ever produced is designed tough enough to outlast the youngest among us.
Other than aesthetics and materials, the only difference between an M6 classic and an M4-P is the meter.
Think of it like this -
An M4-2 is an M4 without the self-timer with a motor/winder mechanism added;
An M4-P is an M4-2 with six framelines;
An M6 "classic" is an M4-P with a meter;
I could go on...
Also keep in mind there is a condenser (helps prevent the RF patch from whiting-out) in the early M4-2 that was taken out in about 1978 and not put back in until 2002 in the MP.
SuitePhoto
Established
George S.
How many is enough?
Uh-Oh... I hope you mean a solo day trip
....some wives just don't get our Leica fascination and dedication....George S.
How many is enough?
Mike, I couldn't agree more or stress the points that Bill made. The build quality on all the Ms is complete overkill, they'll be going long after we give out ( or film disappears ). Just understand the small differences- frame lines, self-timer, meter or no meter, and fuggetabout any build differences and just get one. As a newcomer, stay away from "beaters" for now.
Gary E
Well-known
The only problem I've had with my M4-2 was with the flash sync. Something broke internally and had to be replaced. Other than that, it's built quite well and has simpler frame lines (of course it's bad if you want more than 35/50/90/135). I've read the earlier M4-2's were better resistant to the patch flare, and not to only recently that Leica offered an upgrade to help with this issue. I've shot with M3, M2 and M4 which did not have this problem.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The very first series of M4-2's (1460 000 or so) could have a problem with the shutterbrake - but considering that this is close to 32+ years ago - any camera today would have had it fixed or never developed it.
The later M4-2's and the M4P's are virtually identical and are extremely durable cameras. They also lack electronics which sometimes is a plus as that is one thing less to go wrong. early M6's used to fry the circuit board and turn themselves into M4P's, but again, at this stage they either have had the problem fixed or never developed it.
Metered cameras, M6/M6TTL's are a bit more, with the M6TTL's being a bit cheaper as most of the classic M users had problems with the "backwards" rotation of the shutter speed dial ( and some of them had a penchant for draining batteries), but they are all good cameras - and if it is the your first M camera, you dont have to relearn shutter speed dial directions either.
One advantage with M cameras is that there is technicians who know how to fix them, if one ever breaks down - and in most cases, parts are available.
I would recommend CameraWest too - they have a substantial inventory and it will give you a chance to handle some different models and also be able to give you some advice. Today, you might only buy a camera - but Leica's are insidious and if they treat you right - they know you will be back for more! Also check with Keeble & Suchat in Palo Alto.
The later M4-2's and the M4P's are virtually identical and are extremely durable cameras. They also lack electronics which sometimes is a plus as that is one thing less to go wrong. early M6's used to fry the circuit board and turn themselves into M4P's, but again, at this stage they either have had the problem fixed or never developed it.
Metered cameras, M6/M6TTL's are a bit more, with the M6TTL's being a bit cheaper as most of the classic M users had problems with the "backwards" rotation of the shutter speed dial ( and some of them had a penchant for draining batteries), but they are all good cameras - and if it is the your first M camera, you dont have to relearn shutter speed dial directions either.
One advantage with M cameras is that there is technicians who know how to fix them, if one ever breaks down - and in most cases, parts are available.
I would recommend CameraWest too - they have a substantial inventory and it will give you a chance to handle some different models and also be able to give you some advice. Today, you might only buy a camera - but Leica's are insidious and if they treat you right - they know you will be back for more! Also check with Keeble & Suchat in Palo Alto.
maddoc
... likes film again.
Most have been said already in this thread already so I can only give some comment from my experience.... The M4-P is the best Leica you can buy if you don't need either an internal meter or AE. "Best" because it is the newest Leica M without any electronics but having all the features of the later M models (6 frame lines, coupling for motor or Rapidwinder, easy loading system, no restrictions for any lens leica ever made). This is from my experience, having used M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M6TTL, MP. The only drawback is the potentially flare-problem, from what all Leicas except the M3 suffer to a certain degree. With the M4-2, M4-P, M6, and M6TTL it is a little worse compared to an M2, M4, M5 or newer MP.
Tuolumne
Veteran
My M4-P is smoother than my MP(3). Much smoother. Perhaps the M4-P has been broken in more. I don't know. But given the wider range of frame lines, the solid build, and incredibly delicious smoothness, it is my favorite M user camera. The finder does flare in contrajour light or when in a dark interior facing incandescent lighting. But that is its only problem. I use the 28mm frame line the most with this camera.
/T
/T
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
I have and use both an M4 black chrome and an M4-P black chrome and find little to choose between the two when taking photos. I expected much more of a difference in use as the M4 is so highly touted for it's smoothness and build quality. I would not be too afraid of an M4-P from where I sit. Can't comment on the M4-2 or M6 never having had either.
Bob
Bob
SuitePhoto
Established
Thanks for all the good info! After watching ebay for a few days I've come to the conclusion that the M4-Ps and M6s are going for almost the same price - especially once I factor in the cost of buying a VC II meter to use with the M4-P... I wonder why the values are so close, even though the M6 is newer and has a built-in meter.
In any case, I'd rather buy from RFF member for obvious reasons, so please feel free to PM me if you have one of the afore mentioned models that you are willing to part with.
In any case, I'd rather buy from RFF member for obvious reasons, so please feel free to PM me if you have one of the afore mentioned models that you are willing to part with.