Now it can be asked - Is the M8.2 worth almost 2x the M8?

[Roger Hicks]

Even if you would believe that a higher price would reduce sales significantly, ask yourself: "would a 25% lower price attract many more buyers?" I would think not.

Very true.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Tuolumne]

Very true.

Cheers,

R.

Opps. Time to close the thread again. The final word hath been spoken.

/T

 

[jaapv]

Can we agree that products that are mass-produced according to the best six-sigma processes are far superior in production quality, longevity, and reliability than any custom-built hand product? This fascination with hand-made Leica products is a fetish that gives rise to all of the reliability and warranty problems we read about. Japanese manufacturers make many millions of camera with few problems. Who wants a hand-assembled electronic product? It's just a prescription for disaster. Notwithstanding which, I understand how it can still be perceived as a (false) differentiator of quality.

As far as price goes, I would definitely consider an M8.2 at the original M8 price (what was that, $4595?), never at its current price, and I am far from rich.

I think the "Professional" protectors are the ones with multi-coated Schott glass. The others are of a lesser material without coatings.

/T

I think the only thing we can agree on is that your perception of quality differs drastically from mine. What you are advocating is soulless perfectionism in a throw-away society. Btw, I think the subject of your avatar would appeal more to me than to you 😀

 

[Tuolumne]

I think the only thing we can agree on is that your perception of quality differs drastically from mine. What you are advocating is soulless perfectionism in a throw-away society.

That's just mindless blather. Why are things that are well made, indeed almost perfectly-made, by machine any less soulfull than a hand-made product? We're not talking about a painting or a finely made piece of furniture, which is more a work of art or the work of an artisan, in any case. We're talking about mass-produced products across the board. Leica M8's have the problems they do precisely because they are hand made.

I have a Nikon FM3a, bought in 2005. I rather suspect it was mass manufactured in a Japanese factory about that time. Do you really think it is less soulful than the hand-built MP I bought around the same time? Do you really think it is less durable or will be any less long-lasting than any Leica counterpart?

Give me a break.

/T

 

[jaapv]

That's just mindless blather. Why are things that are well made, indeed almost perfectly-made, by machine any less soulfull than a hand-made product? We're not talking about a painting or a finely made piece of furniture, which is more a work of art or the work of an artisan, in any case. We're talking about mass-produced products across the board. Leica M8's have the problems they do precisely because they are hand made.

I have a Nikon FM3a, bought in 2005. I rather suspect it was mass manufactured in a Japanese factory about that time. Do you really think it is less soulful than the hand-built MP I bought around the same time? Do you really think it is less durable or will be any less long-lasting than any Leica counterpart?

Give me a break.

/T

If you consider someones else's opinion mindless blather, you should start arguing in a church. Most have fine echos....

 

[Tuolumne]

Ok, I apologize. Just answer this:

Why are things that are well made, indeed almost perfectly-made, by machine any less soulfull than a hand-made product? We're not talking about a painting or a finely made piece of furniture, which is more a work of art or the work of an artisan, in any case. We're talking about mass-produced products across the board. Leica M8's have the problems they do precisely because they are hand made.

I have a Nikon FM3a, bought in 2005. I rather suspect it was mass manufactured in a Japanese factory about that time. Do you really think it is less soulful than the hand-built MP I bought around the same time? Do you really think it is less durable or will be any less long-lasting than any Leica counterpart?

/T

 

[Uwe_Nds]

Jappv,

You will never get six-sigma quality ore a reasonable price from an electronic device that way.

/T

Now you're BS'ing again!

Quality is never absolute, but the accepted level of "defects".
You can produce a Holga under Six-Sigma - no problem! Just define what a "defect" is accordingly.

Go number crunching!

Cheers,
Uwe

 

[Tuolumne]

Now you're BS'ing again!

Quality is never absolute, but the accepted level of "defects".
You can produce a Holga under Six-Sigma - no problem! Just define what a "defect" is accordingly.

Go number crunching!

Cheers,
Uwe

I offer you a 50-inch wide screen TV built by Leica elves in the black forest.

I offer you a 50-inch wide-screen TV built by Samsung in China.

Which would you rather have?

/T

 

[Uwe_Nds]

I offer you a 50-inch wide screen TV built by Leica elves in the black forest.

I offer you a 50-inch wide-screen TV built by Samsung in China.

Which would you rather have?

/T

None of them.
First of all, our living room is to small for a 50-inch TV and - assuming it would be a flat screen - I prefer the IQ of our 16:9 tube TV set.

Nice try, though.

Cheers,
Uwe

 

[kevin m]

There's absolutely no measurable performance advantage to the M8 being hand built. Nothing. If it makes you feel good to use it, then have fun with it, and use it in good health.

No digital camera at this point in the technology's development is a legacy item. I hope that the M8.2 keeps Leica in the DRF game long enough to develop a true rangefinder of the future. One that will hopefully offers at least comparable performance to the current state of the art, and, better still, leaves 1954 in the past where it belongs.

If I were to place a wager, though, I'd bet the Micro 4/3's technology will do it first.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Opps. Time to close the thread again. The final word hath been spoken.

/T

Yawn ... if you have a problem with Roger please take it offline. This is getting more and more tedious crap to wade through. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be so rude or disrespectful if you were face to face.

Mods? Actually, forget that, I can congratulate Tuolumne as being the first person to ever grace my ignore list 🙂

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Whatever the merits of the 8.2, it was born into an economic disaster that will likely keep most of them on dealer's shelves and not in the hands of photographers. Not a great time to introduce a high-end rangefinder.

Oh, no. Is this the beginning of the end of Leica? 🙄

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

There's absolutely no measurable performance advantage to the M8 being hand built. Nothing.

Being hand-built in Germany by people who are trained at being anal-retentive about their handcraft is a far better "performance advantage" over something McBuilt in a sweatshop by people who hate their $0.02/day job which will break in three months.

Something that works for years over something that will break in three months is a very measurable performance advantage when I'm taking photos.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I offer you a 50-inch wide screen TV built by Leica elves in the black forest.

I offer you a 50-inch wide-screen TV built by Samsung in China.

Which would you rather have?

A real TV built anywhere other than China. Hands down.

Problem is, nobody builds them because nobody thinks that quality and a worker's living wages is something that one ought to pay for.

 

[jaapv]

Yawn ... if you have a problem with Roger please take it offline. This is getting more and more tedious crap to wade through. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be so rude or disrespectful if you were face to face.

Mods? Actually, forget that, I can congratulate Tuolumne as being the first person to ever grace my ignore list 🙂

So please don't quote him, he is the sole inhabitant of mine as well 😉

 

[Roger Hicks]

A real TV built anywhere other than China. Hands down.

Problem is, nobody builds them because nobody thinks that quality and a worker's living wages is something that one ought to pay for.

Also very true.

R.

 

[kevin m]

Being hand-built in Germany by people who are trained at being anal-retentive about their handcraft is a far better "performance advantage" over something McBuilt in a sweatshop by people who hate their $0.02/day job which will break in three months.

This is the M8 we're talking about? The M8 that just stops working for no reason and has to have the battery removed to give it a "re-boot?" The M8 whose sensor often has "ghosting" when a light source appears in the frame? The M8 whose owners have had to send their lenses either to Germany or DAG for months at a stretch to get them all to play together?

The "advantages" you mention may be important to you, but the camera's track record says they haven't helped real world realiability. I like hand made things too, and the M8 feels like a solid brick in the hand, but that doesn't translate to measurable performance, does it? The "plastic Japanese junk" that's so often derided here has the nasty habit of working well right out of the box, no excuses necessary.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

The M8 whose owners have had to send their lenses either to Germany or DAG for months at a stretch to get them all to play together?

There are a lot of things off in your last post, but this is the most glaring: so, you're implying that the M8 makes lenses go bad, not that the digital age has made the ugly head of "tolerances" come out?

I've never had to have a lens calibrated to "play together" with my M8. I have never --ever-- ever ever had a problem with a lens that I own that isn't my own fault. I shoot 99% wide-open, and 99% of my shots are pretty spot-on. The ones that were off, have been clearly my fault.

People like to blame the machine first and themselves last. And in Leica's case, well, most people just like to get the first chance at blaming anything with its name slapped on it.

 

[jaapv]

This is the M8 we're talking about? The M8 that just stops working for no reason and has to have the battery removed to give it a "re-boot?" The M8 whose sensor often has "ghosting" when a light source appears in the frame? The M8 whose owners have had to send their lenses either to Germany or DAG for months at a stretch to get them all to play together?

The "advantages" you mention may be important to you, but the camera's track record says they haven't helped real world realiability. I like hand made things too, and the M8 feels like a solid brick in the hand, but that doesn't translate to measurable performance, does it? The "plastic Japanese junk" that's so often derided here has the nasty habit of working well right out of the box, no excuses necessary.

It may be your M8 - but it isn't mine - those are two bodies that have performed flawlessly (apart from the initial recall..) for two years and 16000 exposures now....

 

[Tuolumne]

So please don't quote him, he is the sole inhabitant of mine as well 😉

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

As for Le Monocle de Mon Oncle, never have I seen more supercilious, condescending posts from anyone online. If I saw him in person I would suggest he lower his nose, lest the next rain cause him to drown.

/T